Are Our Locally Produced Vehicles More.....

[dewolf]

Reliable then their Euro counterparts? The reason I ask is that I just bought a Boxster (no I am not a hairdresser nor is my occupation a fudgepacker) that has 190,000kms on the clock with full Porsche service history, and the waterpump just crapped itself. I have a 2005 Ford Falcon family beater that has over 400,000kms on it and it still has the original waterpump, head has nver been off etc. Drove it 1400kms a couple of weeks ago to pick up the Boxster and it never missed a beat. A friend has a Holden Commodore with the Buick derived 3.8 V6 that also has over 350,000kms on it and it's still going strong with no engine work. I would think that a lot of guy's here have Chevs etc with many miles and no problems. I also have a E39 540i that only has 110,000kms on it and it leaks oil, needed a heap of suspension bits replaced recently and half a dozen coil packs and now has a vacuum leak under the manifold
I like my Euro cars, but bloody hell, why so unreliable?

[Rick V]

I think cars have the same ideas that people have, live fast and die young. My Bosxter jumped time at 140k. That is completely unheard of from other vehicles I own or have owned. It is also on water pump number three.
When you build cars that turn up as fast as these do there are going to be failures, it's just the nature of the beast.
Yes it does suck

[onewhippedpuppy]

Yes. My take is that you trade off driving enjoyment for reliability. The Camry will run for $200k with rocks for oil, but it is a dull and lifeless commuting appliance. European cars are better to drive, but also need more TLC. Now the real question - why? Do they push every component to the edge, maximizing driving experience over ultimate reliability? Do they focus their testing on performance vs reliability?

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Do they push every component to the edge, maximizing driving experience over ultimate reliability? Do they focus their testing on performance vs reliability?

Surely in this day and age it is possible for both. At least given the cost of Porsche, BMW, Merc etc you would expect it.

[recycled sixtie]

We have a 2002 Camry and a 2001 Boxster base in the garage. Although they are both low kms(44k and 60k respectively), I would trust the Camry more. 190k kms is a fair amount of clicks for a Boxster to begin with and if it was mine I would be expecting to spend $$$ on it. I budget $1-2 k to be spent on the Boxster a year. The Camry is just an oil change a year. Hands down for fun I take the Boxster for local trips. However with longer trips I take the Camry because it is more comfortable, has more space and I must admit my butt gets less sore. To me the P car is worth the extra $$$$ for the fun factor.

[DanielDudley]

You lost me after fudgepacking...

Get a man's car. I have a Miata that is very reliable.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

You lost me after fudgepacking...

Get a man's car. I have a Miata that is very reliable.

Yeah, get a 996. Same exact car.

The Boxster was the first departure from the air cooled flat six platform and it came with it's own set of problems.

[Rot 911]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Yes. My take is that you trade off driving enjoyment for reliability. The Camry will run for $200k with rocks for oil, but it is a dull and lifeless commuting appliance. European cars are better to drive, but also need more TLC. Now the real question - why? Do they push every component to the edge, maximizing driving experience over ultimate reliability? Do they focus their testing on performance vs reliability?

I actually pondered this in relation to the two BMW's I have owned, a 2002 325i and a 2006 330i. They both had the inline 6 cylinder. Neither engine or transmission (one 5 speed and other an automatic) ever gave me a bit of trouble and I ran those cars hard. It was everything else that would fail long before you would expect. Water pumps at 60K miles (for which it is recommended you go ahead and change out the entire cooling system). Electrical components (to this day BMW's still use the same crappy switches and window regulators). The list goes on and on. Maybe this is how they cut costs? I don't know.

Now consider my 2004 Toyota 4Runner which now has 115K miles and has seen lots of around town, highway and off road use, including towing a boat. Other than the timing belt change at 100K miles (not broken, just the time required for change) all it has seen is just your ordinary maintenance.

[recycled sixtie]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

You lost me after fudgepacking...

Get a man's car. I have a Miata that is very reliable.

Comparing a Miata to the above is like comparing grapes to apples and oranges. I give the Miata credit though it is cheap to run, reliable but lite as in small and not safe compared to everything else being significantly larger. I graduated from a 99 Miata to a Boxster but still maintained my manhood
and wish to stay alive. Have never smiled as much in a car as the Boxster and it has no back seat. Miata man you may be driving a P car in a few years and you can still retain your manhood

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Rot 911

I actually pondered this in relation to the two BMW's I have owned, a 2002 325i and a 2006 330i. They both had the inline 6 cylinder. Neither engine or transmission (one 5 speed and other an automatic) ever gave me a bit of trouble and I ran those cars hard. It was everything else that would fail long before you would expect. Water pumps at 60K miles (for which it is recommended you go ahead and change out the entire cooling system). Electrical components (to this day BMW's still use the same crappy switches and window regulators). The list goes on and on. Maybe this is how they cut costs? I don't know.

Now consider my 2004 Toyota 4Runner which now has 115K miles and has seen lots of around town, highway and off road use, including towing a boat. Other than the timing belt change at 100K miles (not broken, just the time required for change) all it has seen is just your ordinary maintenance.

Yup. I always tell non-enthusiast non-DIY friends to never buy a European car, because they're all like that and will eat you alive if you don't DIY. My other knock on BMW is material quality, I've never seen plastic that fades that fast or leather that wears that badly on any other car. At 100k most BMWs (excepting those that are OCD maintained) are simply worn out inside).

Frankly I've found modern Porsches to be the most reliable of the bunch.

[Drisump]

IMHO I don't think you can rely on any car to not need a water pump after 120k miles (190k km). These are normal replacement items that can crop up on any car after 60k miles or so. You may have the luck to not need one for hundreds of thousands of kms but I wouldn't count on it. Comparing a ladder framed truck with simple mechanics to haul around stuff to a highly engineered (lightly constructed and highly stressed) performance car is not reasonable. Also, the shear complexity and number of components in these cars guarantee more frequent failures especially in the electrical systems. Roll up windows are a classic example, who ever had problems with roll up windows?...but with the electric ones there seems to often require something. I have a very old Landcruiser that I use daily...everything works including the roll up windows but my five year newer LC with all the bells and whistles seem to often have little challenges pertaining to the electric windows, cruise control, refrigerator,etc.....things that my old one simply doesn't have. Cheers

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

You lost me after fudgepacking...

Get a man's car. I have a Miata that is very reliable.

And a Miata is a man's car?? Not where I come from lol... I'm secure in my manhood that's why I have no problem owning a convertible mid engined sports car.

[sammyg2]

American-made is better than euro-made and Japanese made is better than American.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by dewolf

I have a 2005 Ford Falcon family beater that has over 400,000kms on it and it still has the original waterpump, A friend has a Holden Commodore with the Buick derived 3.8 V6 that also has over 350,000kms on it and it's still going strong with no engine work

400k km on the orginal water pump is pretty good. I'm not sure that's exactly average.

I consider things like starters, alternators, water pumps, fuel pumps, wires, etc.... to be essentially wear items that do NOT constitute "engine" work (never met a water pump that required removal of heads to replace). Those are going to wear out (bearing and/or seal) and need replacement. Some last longer than others, probably as much about the design and build as the environment. How often does your 2005 Ford Falcon spin at 7000 rpm? How often has the boxster?

Meh, water pump is no big deal. It may not have been cheap or easy to replace, but you knew that going into the deal.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by dewolf

Surely in this day and age it is possible for both.

Don't forget that the boxster is the cheap Porsche, and it turns 7 grand. Yes, you could make a motor turn 7000 rpm and design all of the parts to last longer at that rpm, but it would cost a lot more then.

At least given the cost of Porsche, BMW, Merc etc you would expect it.

Drive your 2005 Ford Falcon like a boxster. Wind the motor up to redline several times a day, hammer the brakes, corner hard, and come back after 150,000 km in both cars and tell me how each has handled it.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by recycled sixtie

Comparing a Miata to the above is like comparing grapes to apples and oranges. I give the Miata credit though it is cheap to run, reliable but lite as in small and not safe compared to everything else being significantly larger. I graduated from a 99 Miata to a Boxster but still maintained my manhood
and wish to stay alive. Have never smiled as much in a car as the Boxster and it has no back seat. Miata man you may be driving a P car in a few years and you can still retain your manhood

I had an '88 911 Targa, then I got a '97 Miata, now I have a 2004 turbo Miata. I'll have another Porsche again some day. I have no idea if I'll go long hood, another 3.2L G50 car, 964, 993, Boxster, etc.... I'll figure that out when I get there. I really, really loved the 911. The miata is like a Porsche Jr for me. Very good, but not of the same caliber as the Porsche.

Originally Posted by dewolf

And a Miata is a man's car?? Not where I come from lol... I'm secure in my manhood that's why I have no problem owning a convertible mid engined sports car.

I'm not sure why folks continue the stereotype for the miata and boxster. I guess because they are "cute" and are not hairy chested beasts. Does that make an MG or Spitfire a gay car? Anyway, whatever, I'm not worried about it. I've scared too many people in my cars, and I wasn't making a pass at them when it happened.

[mikeesik]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

You lost me after fudgepacking...

Get a man's car. I have a Miata that is very reliable.

Both sentences made me laugh quite well-Thankyou.