$30k: Early Cayman S or 996?

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by BReif61

The newer engine would be nicer, yes, but I have yet to see any that are in the price range. Could I stretch for one? Perhaps. But I'm much more comfortable with the situation laid out. This would be the daily (and honestly, weekend joyrider. It's a Porsche!). I have not gotten into autoX, and if I did I would just use the 944 or a second, cheaper car.

Thanks for the clarification.

My $0.42:

My opinion comes from a different perspective: I am pretty much in the same situation as you car, except I am looking to replace my 944S2 track toy with either a 996 or Cayman S track toy. So for me, durability under high-stress conditions is likely more of a priority than for you. That said... some things to consider:

1. 996: In order to not worry about "engine go boom" issues, if I bought a 996, the first order of business would be to shore up the RMS, especially if the car is a pre-2004 996. They have kits now that will help prevent the catastrophic failure in the 3.6 motors. IIRC The individual ignition units (coils?) for each cylinder would also be replaced - the plastic housing tends to crack and cause issues. And then, "while I'm in there," I would do other preventative maintenance on the car to ensure durabilty of the powerplant. (And a suspension upgrade would also be likely! )

2. Pre-2009 Cayman S: first order of business would be to increase the size of the oil pan. There are kits out there that is a replace/bolt-on unit, with additional baffles to prevent oil pickup starvation. I would also then get a better power steering fluid cooler, since that tends to be an issue with these cars. I would also upgrade the suspension, and if my choice had PASM, with the flick of a switch, I can go from an agressive street suspension to a track suspension...

So for me, the bottom line is this: while I am still considering a 996 / Cayman S, I know that in order to have peace of mind with either car, I will have a significant amount of work done on either car as soon as I've purchased it, unless such work has already been done on the car.

Yes, I've done a bit of research on this very topic, as you may notice.
-Z-man.

[89911]

Cayman S without a second thought. Why, because its a better "drivers" car. Personally I would get a Boxster S for the money since they are basically the same car.

[89911]

Z Man. Sounds like you should just buy a used GT3. Sure its more money, but it has all the problems you want to solve fixed. Get one for the right price and you can get out of it for little harm. Upgrading a 996 isn't going to ad any value to the car except for yourself.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by 89911

Z Man. Sounds like you should just buy a used GT3. Sure its more money, but it has all the problems you want to solve fixed. Get one for the right price and you can get out of it for little harm. Upgrading a 996 isn't going to ad any value to the car except for yourself.

A GT3 would be easily $20k to $30k more than a 996 / Cayman S. Say I buy a 996/987S for $30k, the costs of upgrades would run me about $10k, so I'm still better off. AND - I'm not buying a track car based on how much I can sell it afterwards. (Case in point: I've owned my 944 for 10 years now...)

Plus it is hard for me to justify putting a $70k car on the track at my budget and monetary income...

-Z-man.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Drive them, they have a totally different feel. I've owned a 1999 Boxster as well as four 996s, including a 2003. I know you want a Cayman, but the Boxster is very similar so I'll use it for comparison. While both are fantastic cars many of the previous comments are correct, the 996 is a bit more GT and the Boxster is much more of a sports car. Despite the overall similarity in weight and dimensions the Boxster has a much more nimble and lightweight feel to it, you can definitely feel the difference in mid-engined vs rear engined. The biggest nod I'd give to the 996 is appearance and power, though buying a Cayman S would help to mitigate the power gap. In my opinion the Boxster was more fun, if I didn't have kids I'd be driving one now.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by BReif61

How do the interiors compare? The 996 looks dated to a Cayman. Is this as real as it appears in pictures?
How usable are either car in an everyday setting?
Either one more DIY friendly?

Ooooh... A thread I can actually contribute an "educated" opinion to ;-) I've actually owned both cars you mention above, almost in succession. The 2002 996 (sold for a GTI a few years back) and then the 2006 Cayman S (still got it).

Interesting dilemma...

- The 996 is..... a 911 (big reveal), with all that this entails. Its engine felt more powerful to me (I know it *is*, but it *felt* it as well), and being a 911, that car squats and rockets out of corners, and takes off from a standstill better than a mid engined cayman. Also, it feels a bit more refined in terms of parasitic noises because the gearbox linkages have a straight shot from shifter to gearbox, and the engine is further away from you. Kinda sounded more guttural too.
Now, the base 996 is admittedly not the prettiest car out there with its stock Tilapia mouth front bumper and fried eggs headlamps. It's also apparently more affected by RMS/IMS issues than later years. Personally, I also didn't like the tire noise in the cabin (tried 2 brands), and I thought the factory rear pressures were incredibly stupid high and the ride was a little uncomfortable overall, till I went way below on pressures (but still it bounced way more than say, a 993)... The interior is frankly very dated now compared to a 987 era car. All in all, I liked it, liked the fact it had a rear seat, it was a great car on track, good daily driver, etc... I just was not in lust with it and did not like the idea of the M96 engine issues....

- The 987CS is another animal. While it does not have that 911 ability to shoot out of a turn -and I miss that- it has the ability to get in to a turn faster and in a more balanced fashion. The steering on that car is sublime. IMO this is the best handling car out there on the comfortable side of a Lotus Elise. I also *love* the way the Cayman looks with those rear hips, and I actually prefer the Gen1 look to the Gen 2's more slanted (feminine?) tail lights. The engine is adequate, it's quite good and screams from 5000 to 7200 RPM ;-) Little less grunt than the 996 down low but nothing that will leave you complaining... The interior is much more modern and IMO more comfortable than the 996. The cayman suffers from a slightly louder cockpit due to the engine being right behind you, and the gear linkages snaking all around the engine bay all the way to the gearbox in the back. I should add that it shifts perfectly well however, it's just that you can hear it sometimes, it's not quite as refined a feel as the 996.... It is also not the best car in terms of 3/4 rear view with those tiny windows... It also has issues of oil starvation on track if using sticky tires, and some have had IMS issues as well - I'd say that's probably a draw in terms of issues with the 996 overall, none of that stuff appears truly resolved until the 9A1 engine of the 2009 cars... it seems the RMS/IMS is less prevalent on the M97 than on the M96 engine, but you can repair the IMS in situ with an LN engineering bearing on the older car, NOT on the 987... No spare tire on the Cayman, but you can stuff a 996 spare in the frunk sideways (front trunk in cayman speak).

As a daily driver, they both to the trick, they are fast, A/C works great, both are reliable, comfortable enough... The Cayman's party trick is the 2 trunks, always confounds people on the supermarket parking lot or pulling up at a hotel. As for maintenance, both are surprisingly DIY friendly and easier than older cars in some respects (suspension comes to mind)... Go-fast parts are also easily installed and not that expensive. I remember doing a M030 suspension mod on the 996, GT3 console delete, short shift kit, lots of stuff is available. The Cayman is the same, you can bolt on the Cayman R suspension, etc... I don't know why some people complain about the Cayman's engine access, it takes 2 minutes to access it, but most of what you need to do is done from the bottom anyway. I've got a lift so it doesn't bother me.

No significant issues mechanically in my ownership... CaymanS needed a water pump at 40K miles ($800) - not great but I did keep it way longer than the 996 so it's not fair to compare. It also seems to be gentler on its rear tires. I would say the 996 probably makes a better track car - there are tons of them in junkyards for parts, you can probably get it cheaper than the CS I think... the CS is a fantastic canyon carver, it's built to change direction in the twisties, and a little more unique (for track you need a motorsport VOS, deeper baffled sump, and some luck). I personally like that the CS is rare, that it handles like a boxster (a good thing, but a tad stiffer thanks to the roof), that you hardly see anyone on the road driving the same car, and it's really a blast to drive overall. It's not really a contest for me, if you think you might like the Cayman you'll probably end up loving it to bits. Whereas in my experience, you respect the base 996 (love, meh... OTOH I could love a GT3, or a 997 V2 or a long hood 911)....

I've been called fickle by some friends, whenever I think about selling a car, it's generally gone in a matter of days... Yet I tried to sell the CS twice already (2 kids) and each time I backed down because I like that car too much - looks and feel... I never felt that way about the 996, in fact I traded it for a GTI ;-) But I keep going back and forth anyway between rear engine and mid engine ;-)

HTH.

Mine...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Good points by Greg above. To pile on, you'll be surprised how much stuff you can haul in the Cayman's two trunks. I actually preferred it to the 996 because stuff left sitting in the 996 back seat is prone to being stolen. Engine access is a total wash, frankly you can get to more of the Cayman engine without dropping the motor than a 996. The Cayman has an access panel above, in front (behind the seats), and open access below and by removing the rear tires. The 996 has easy access to the front and bottom of the engine but you can't get to anything on the top or backside (IMS & RMS). Frankly you'll spend most of your time under either of them, working below or through the rear wheel wells.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Z-man

Say I buy a 996/987S for $30k, the costs of upgrades would run me about $10k, so I'm still better off..... -Z-man.

The LN IMS retrofit kit is ~$620..... you can DIY, or it's about a grand to have it done. So, under $2K.... not $10K.

Pelican Parts - Product Information: LN-106-08-2

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by kaisen

The LN IMS retrofit kit is ~$620..... you can DIY, or it's about a grand to have it done. So, under $2K.... not $10K.

Pelican Parts - Product Information: LN-106-08-2

ok - $2k for the IMS fix.
then - $5k for the suspenion
then $1k for the interior
then $2k for track wheels...

And the list goes on.....

-Z

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by Z-man

ok - $2k for the IMS fix.
then - $5k for the suspenion
then $1k for the interior
then $2k for track wheels...

And the list goes on.....

-Z

For your tastes, perhaps. I understand. But not general advice for someone considering a 996/986/987 and fearing the IMS failure

Just wanted them to know it's not a $10 grand deal

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Z-man

ok - $2k for the IMS fix.
then - $5k for the suspenion
then $1k for the interior
then $2k for track wheels...

And the list goes on.....

-Z

Damn Z, you've got some expensive tastes! For that kind of money your track rat will have a set of full adjustable coilovers, GT3 carbon fiber seats, and some shiny new BBS wheels.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Damn Z, you've got some expensive tastes! For that kind of money your track rat will have a set of full adjustable coilovers, GT3 carbon fiber seats, and some shiny new BBS wheels.

Not expensive tastes -- I just know when you start 'upgrading' a car, there are many hidden costs or unintentional "while you are there you should..." side-projects.

Case in point: my 944S2. Over the years between maintenance items, upgrade items, wear and tear items, I probably have over $40k "invested" in that track rat, which is probably only worth $8k on a good day... I'd rather pay the entry fee up front than pay for an expensive track-related repair...

-Z

[BReif61]

Deschodt,

Wow... thanks for that brain dump.

Originally Posted by kaisen

For your tastes, perhaps. I understand. But not general advice for someone considering a 996/986/987 and fearing the IMS failure

Just wanted them to know it's not a $10 grand deal

I've done enough research to know that the IMS fix is only about a grand, less if DIY. No scares from that post. It is my understanding that all non-facelift 996 and all pre-DI Caymans are the "at-risk" segment for the failure, correct?

Any trick to cracking the dealers for test rides? I've never attempted to buy a vehicle like these, and I have apprehension that the dealers would be wary of just letting me test drive them.

[chocolatelab]

Mine...


[/QUOTE]

Wow that white Cayman is hot.

drooling

[David]

I'd go for the Cayman unless like my case, you need the extra inch of leg room.

I haven't driven a Cayman since I had no intention of buying one but I did drive a few 996's before buying the 997 and I must say they're really nice driving cars and not that much different than the 997. Of course the Cayman would handle even better.

[MKS_Performance]

Cayman S

[racer]

Drive them both.. then decide.

Yes, the 996 interior feels "cheaper" than the 987 cars.. but if you find one with the full leather dash option, it really does help.

As for Z man, he's still 5-10 years away from making a decision and yes, for Zman, the better choice is a sorted GT3 vs a CS or 996 or ... but of course, it costs more.. its worth it (of course, in another 10 years, a Cayman R might be enough to muddle his decision process yet again )

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by racer

As for Z man, he's still 5-10 years away from making a decision and yes, for Zman, the better choice is a sorted GT3 vs a CS or 996 or ... but of course, it costs more.. its worth it (of course, in another 10 years, a Cayman R might be enough to muddle his decision process yet again )

Well, hopefully not THAT far away... and yes - a GT3 is a better track-oriented car, but I'm not sure I would enjoy it as much as a CS. Besides, if I had a GT3, then I would have no excuses for being the slow turd in the Red run groupo....

Now that you mention a Cayman R -- I would probably shoot for that vs. a 996 GT3 - prolly similar price points in a year or two. Hmm.....

I don't really need the 2nd bathroom re-done, do I? (Right now, the master bath renovation is 1/2 done...)
-Z

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by BReif61

Deschodt,
Wow... thanks for that brain dump.It is my understanding that all non-facelift 996 and all pre-DI Caymans are the "at-risk" segment for the failure, correct?
Any trick to cracking the dealers for test rides?

You're welcome. Sorry if i went on, it's not everyday that I simultaneously know the subject matter and I'm bored at work ;-)

ALL porsches from 98 to 08 (US Model year) are at risk for RMS and IMS. RMS is not that big a deal anymore, and the incidence of that on later cars is low due to the newer seal design. IMS, though is a problem. To be clear, M96 engines (base 996s and early boxsters) have apparently more of a risk, but the LN engineering kit can be installed without cracking the case. That's your $1000... maybe...

The M97 engines (Cayman and 997) have *less* of a problem with the IMS, but it still can happen, and as far as I know, you CANNOT use LN's kit without cracking the case... $$$$ - not sure if that's 10 grand or what, never priced cracking the case of an M97, but if it were you'd be close to buying a new motor with a 2y warranty!

So less risk/ higher cost on the Cayman/997 side. Personally, I could not resist the cayman S in that price range, but logic dictates you avoid that 10year era completely if you are worried about buying a new engine out of pocket. We can only hope more LN-style solutions are developped over the years, or you're gonnabe looking at a whole decade of unwanted P-cars on the used market. Now how much of that is internet hype vs. reality, I have no idea. I've had 2 boxsters, a 996 and a caymanS in the last 10y, and none of them blew up (yet ! - knocking on wood).


>@chocolatelab: Wow that white Cayman is hot.

Yes it is, thank you!! ;-)

[aigel]

How much do the 996 GT3s go for these days? 50k?

G