Considering a 911 - need advice

[javadog]

Originally Posted by BSiple

I think someone needs to start their own thread if they are going to be nothing but negative and confrontational.

If you're talking about me, that's not my intent. I'm trying to give advice to the original poster and sometimes I feel that it's appropriate to challenge something that is more "internet wisdom" than fact. Let's use the discussion that preceded your comments as an example.

If I were to summarize the "accepted wisdom", everybody knows that a 911 of this era ('80's, give or take) had a "fully galvanized" body. It came with a 10 year rust warranty. And, 25 years later, if it was cared for properly, rust should not be an issue, so it's not worth checking for it. And, driving a car in the rain does it no harm, nor does high mileage. Let's look a little deeper...

Porsche did not make their bodies from mild steel, then hot-dip galvanize them. They used a coated steel that was developed by the Thyssenkrupp company in Europe, which was esssentially a sheet of steel that was galvanized before Porsche got it. They developed a welding process that they claimed would allow molten zinc to flow back over the weld area, thus keeping the coating intact. Looking at how they built bodies back in the 80's I could not see this (it looked like normal welding to me) but let's assume they were correct. The completed shell was then dipped in a coating (let's call it a primer) and some areas were sprayed with a rubberized undercoating. When Porsche painted a 911 shell, it was partially assembled. Some of the removable panels were painted separately, although they were installed on a fixture that also held the body. This meant that not every surface on every panel got paint. All of the visible exterior surfaces were fully painted; lots of the interior surfaces got nothing more than overspray and some areas got no paint at all. After further assembly, a few areas got additional undercoating.

On a 911 tub, there is a little "shelf" adjacent to the front fender mounting flange. It is more or less horizontal and got little to no paint or undercoating when the bodies were painted. The filler tube for the windshield washer tank passes adjacent to it and creates a sort of dam. Over time, if a car is driven in rainy weather, this area fills up with dirt. Every time it gets wet, it stays that way for a period of time. Sooner or later, the zinc coating is completely sacrificed in this area and bare steel is exposed. Rust begins. It's not usually a problem on the right side of the car, because there is no rubber hose on that side to trap the dirt. Cars that don't see much rain use don't have much of a problem, either.

What of the warranty? Well, as it turns out, it's not a warrany against rust, it's a warranty against rust perforation. You have to have a hole completely through a panel for it to be in effect. And, the owner had to do his part as well. Porsche intended for the cars to recieve a thorough check at a dealer (annual, or bi-annual, I don't recall) to identify and correct any defects in the paint or undercoating, for the life of the warranty. I'd wager this was seldom done.

This is just one example of how the amount and type of use plays a part in the condition of a car many years down the road. You can have two cars that are equally shiny and cared for on the outside and one might be great and the other headed for the repair shop.

I'd encourage the original poster to get familiar with the potential pitfalls of these cars, so he knows what to look for, or knows what to direct others to look for, so he can make an informed decision. Some of them are well documented in books on the 911, others not at all.

JR

In this photo, note the overall cleanliness of the trunk, which is evidence of care in the ownership. The cleaner part of the inner fender is also typical of someone that periodically cleans underneath the car. The dirty areas to the right of the photo show areas that are more difficult to reach, therefore the dirt layer is fairly thick there. This is the 90k, Sand Diego car I referenced earlier.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Dottore

As far as I know, the life of the car.

Thanks Dottore - how about model years?

G

[Steve Carlton]

All the help so far has been great, and I appreciate it. I'm starting to like the Cayman S more and more. Seems like a tremendous value, with modern conveniences, reliability, and ferocious handling. The 2-seater aspect is an advantage for me- one person only required for carpool lanes. I get a company car to cover more practical needs.

[techweenie]

Cayman/Boxster are absolutely unbeatable values. It's a different world when it comes to replacing tires or having any significant work done, but the newer engine (in all Caymans and in Boxsters from mid 05) is proving to be very reliable.

Very different experiences, early 911s vs. mid-engine liquid-cooled Porsches. I bounce back and forth between them myself, and never regret the one I'm driving.

[Steve Carlton]

As Denis said, a $17,000 car can quickly become a $27,000 car. I'm not ruling it out, by any means. Just much higher risk with a 25 year old car.

[techweenie]

Yes, that $9500, 227K-mile Carrera I bought needed a couple wheel bearings and the axle bearings were getting loose. It also had some bogus aftermarket chip in it that advanced the spark radically. So it did cost me another $1800 or so to get things right. We call that stuff "deferred maintenance" and "bad decisions by PO." Both will likely cost you money on a cheaper used 911. If you're not a risk taker, you can go for the best vintage 911 regardless of price. As always, in buying a used car, you're buying the owner as much as the car, so look for receipts, and especially mechanics' notes on the work orders.

[Steve Carlton]

Pulled the trigger on the '85 Slate Gray Coupe that I saw on eBay. PPI was done today and the shop owner said the car looked like it had 10K miles on it (it's 52,700). Dry as a bone underneath with cosmoline still on it and the shocks, compression within 5 lbs from min to max, 4.1% max leakdown, etc. Appears to all be original paint and bodywork, pending final confirmation Monday. AC holding pressure, but needs a recharge. Good tires with lots of tread, replacing front pads only (60% worn).

Got a lot of help from Dan at RMG over the phone and he called the shop doing the PPI as well.

[kaisen]

Congrats Steve!

[JJ 911SC]

Great... Can wait to see some pics.

Btw, start shopping for a new Avatar

[onewhippedpuppy]

Congrats! Pics are required. I'd be curious as to what led you to decide on the Carrera.

[Jim Richards]

Congrats, Steve.

[Zeke]

Steve, that sounds like a grand car. Shows they are out there.

[Steve Carlton]

Thanks for the congrats! I'm looking forward to this.

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I'd be curious as to what led you to decide on the Carrera.

I suppose as most guys have, I've always wanted to own one. My dad had a '69 911T and the whole thing appealed to me- the bulging fenders leading to the headlights, the sound of the engine, the dash, the quality of workmanship. For me the mid-year 911s have the most appealing look with the Fuchs wheels. I started to veer towards a Caymen (which kind of looks to me like a Porsche Dino), but I'm really more into the driving experience and I like the classic 911 looks.

[speeder]

Awesome! A couple of small notes: your car is Slate Blue, not Slate Grey, (which was also a Porsche color). At least if it's the eBay car we were discussing before on the thread. Also, it is not a "mid-year car". I understand what you mean, but in air-cooled 911s, '65-'73 are early cars, '74-'77 are called mid-year cars and then SCs and Carreras. Yours is a Carrera, much better than a mid-year car in the world of air-cooled 911s.

[Steve Carlton]

Yes- Slate Blue, my mistake. I know you weren't crazy about the beige interior, but it works for me. Probably this was my first choice color along with Prussian Blue. I must have got confused about mid-year cars. I like Carrera better as the shorthand. When I think of mid-year cars, I think of '63-67 Corvettes, anyway.

[Dottore]

Congratulations! That looked like a superb car and an excellent buy.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Pulled the trigger on the '85 Slate Gray Coupe that I saw on eBay. PPI was done today and the shop owner said the car looked like it had 10K miles on it (it's 52,700). Dry as a bone underneath with cosmoline still on it and the shocks, compression within 5 lbs from min to max, 4.1% max leakdown, etc. Appears to all be original paint and bodywork, pending final confirmation Monday. AC holding pressure, but needs a recharge. Good tires with lots of tread, replacing front pads only (60% worn).

Got a lot of help from Dan at RMG over the phone and he called the shop doing the PPI as well.

congrats!


now...

Critical Safety Issues when buying a 911

[speeder]

How about some good pictures of that stallion? The eBay pics were not that good.

[nostatic]

two words: track it

[speeder]

Originally Posted by nostatic

two words: track it

Why? Every single 911 should not be thrashed at the track. I mean, if that's his intention, fine. But if so, he could have spent $10-15k less for one that's hit some concrete on the freeway or something.

There is nothing wrong with owning something really nice and preserving it. Some people enjoy that. Run-down examples that are perfect for track cars are a dime-a-dozen.