Bad Plane Crash At My Airport (52F)

[gshase]

Last Saturday I had just finished a flying lesson and a was waiting on my second student to show up. I got out my Honda CT 70 and rode it around the airport visiting a buddy when I see 2 police cars running up and down the runway and taxi way in all 4 directions. I flag down a cop and he said there was a reported plane crash and they could see no sign of it. I look at the South end of the runway and see a buddy of mine who had just taken off circling the end of the runway at about 200 feet. I tell the cop that the J3 is over the crash sits and we hall a__ to the end of the runway and head for the woods. The second cop says I should stay back, and I ask him if he knows how to secure an aircraft. He says come on. As we make our way 200 yards in the Texas woods, I see white chunks of aluminum and then 2 wings 30 feet up in the trees. No fuselage could be seen as we run further into the woods. I now see the tail of the Piper arrow now just ahead of us.The fuselage is rolled on its right side covering the only cabin door from being opened.The pilot was slumped over the dash and The Instructor was laying on the door. I make contact with the instructor and he did respond. I call my student (15 year old girl) and ask where she and her Doctor father are, and she said they were on the airport, and I told them we needed them to help us. We tried to roll the fuselage but the trees were keeping us from getting access to the only door. Somebody showed up with an ax and we had to chop down some trees so we level the plane so the EMT/FD could get to the victims. At this time we had a Doctor and a Nurse there before the EMT/FD was on site. It seams like a lifetime passed before help arrive. The pilot owner was killed on impact and the instructor died at the Hospital. All the pilots and my Doctor buddy who were there never saw any shoulder harnesses and felt the injuries would have been survivable with some harnesses. I told 2 students whom I fly with this story and they both have harnesses on order now. Whiteness stated The Arrow never developed full takeoff power and was backfiring on the takeoff run. Possibly this could be a learning experience for some.


This is the cop who told me to stay back





Notice prop spinner and tree impact

Wings in a tree

[BRPORSCHE]

Ok, not a physics question but just a general question.

How exactly do you die from that? Head trauma? I never understood small plane crashes. The fuselage looks to be fairly intact.

I mean to disrespect in the comment. It is something that has always puzzled me. The older I get the more afraid of flying I become.

[Jrboulder]

Man that's so sad to see a tragedy like that

I wonder what the circumstances surrounding the accident were? It looks like one of the very first Arrows and it recently changed hands and has a fresh engine (wonders of the internet...)

I flew with an instructor out of Northwest regional about 6 years ago in a 56 C172. I hope it wasn't him.

[Noah930]

Condolences to the families.

Originally Posted by BRPORSCHE

How exactly do you die from that? Head trauma? I never understood small plane crashes. The fuselage looks to be fairly intact.

Several possibilities. Neck trauma is one (break your neck a la Dale Earnhardt). Often if there's sudden death (upon impact), there will be some rupture/shearing of the great vessels. Those are the major blood vessels such as the aorta, pulmonary artery or vein, vena cava. If one of those tears upon the major impact, it's death within seconds as you exsanguinate internally.

Even if you hit your head hard enough, it's not common that you'd die upon impact (if that were the only major injury). You might lose consciousness, but you probably wouldn't die immediately. Even if you have major internal bleeding within the skull, the bony skull will slow down the bleeding such that you wouldn't die of the blood loss. You'd die because the swelling of the brain matter itself or the mass effect of the expanding blood collection next to your brain (within the skull) would squish the brain and brainstem enough to cause you to stop breathing/vital functions. That could take half an hour, several hours, or days.

[HardDrive]

Terrible Gary. Rough to see that. Good on you for jumping in and doing what could be done.

[Schumi]

I've been in a rally car wreck that looked far worse than that after we came to rest, and walked away with just some aches and disorientation.
I've also had time in a similar aircraft.

The difference? The aircraft doesn't have a 1.75" steel alloy tube frame, and the occupants do not wear six point harnesses with helmets and HANS devices when they fly.

Small plane crashes could be made survivable. There is no lack of engineering capability to do so. If you think otherwise, there are a few F1 drivers who'd like to chat with you.

[unclebilly]

So if basal skull fractures are common is small plane crashes (seems plausible), why haas nobody developed a HANS device for his application? Shoulder belts were mentioned, I imagine a helmet would need to be developed as well.

I don't feel safe on the track in any car without my Hans.

[widgeon13]

Very sad and unfortunate but there is usually some explanation for this type of accident.

"The Arrow never developed full takeoff power and was backfiring on the takeoff run." You think they might have recognized this in the cockpit??

These things don't just happen, there is always a cause.

Terrible thing to witness.

[recycled sixtie]

This is very traumatic for all concerned. Yes shoulder harnesses should be mandatory for
small aircraft. I seem to remember older military aircraft have shoulder harnesses - excellent 3 point ones. You drivers who do track racing are far ahead with your metal cages, shoulder harnesses are way ahead safety wise. I would think that modern aircraft should have shoulder have harnesses but do they? Their lives could possibly have been saved by shoulder harnesses. You might consider getting counselling as this kind of situation is traumatic.

[widgeon13]

Many modern aircraft have shoulder harnesses (either standard or as an option) but in aviation it is always a cost issue. Retrofitting shoulder harnesses to an airplane is also very expensive. Would I like them in my plane, absolutely but it would probably cost $3k to have it done properly.

[dmcummins]

My plane did not have shoulder harness when I bought it. The broker I was working with said I should buy a pair as he had a friend that died and they felt that a harness would have saved him. First thing that went into my plane. Cost $2,000, and like insurance you hope you never need them.

[ODDJOB UNO]

heres some advice re: this as i was 1st on scene for a dual fatal at our airport a few years back the day after labor day at 545am.

decided to go in early as i had a ton of paperwork to do, turn corner hear a muffled thud and look east from a stop sign a block away and see black smoke. 1st thought is some moron contractors truck caught fire. from stop sign to plane was maybe 15 seconds. see fuselage and movement in plane. holy poo theres 2 guys in there! pull over jump out with 5# fire ext, at that moment items started to cook off and flames got bigger, there wasnt a damn thing i could do for them. dont know what was cooking off? ammo/oil filled gauges/coke cans/shaving creme cans who knows. all i know the heat was intense, i had a 5# fire ext pointed at it and i may as well have been pissing in a hurricane.

got my poo together turned around and called 911. i'm the only one there and literally watched two guys burn to death in front of my eyes, up close and personal.


took fire and cops about 10 minutes to arrive, and one of the cops i knew from being my azccw instructor. he took me aside as now the news helos were flying over like vultures taking video/along with ground news crews arriving and asked me what i saw. i explained to him everything, and he stated they would need me later for a statement so stick around.


i stuck around in total shock at what i saw until about 10am when called by cop to come over to tower. i walk up and this douche bag association member blocks my access to tower telling me i wasnt allowed in. i told this fooking idiot i was 1st on scene and cops wanted my statement and get the hell out of my way before i kick yer ass to high hell! he moved aside and to this day i will not speak to him. just another HOA douche bag that thought he was impotent!


this incident really affected me for awhile. its even tough to write about now. the guy had just done an annual, actually had dumped all his fuel from wing tanks and came over and asked us if we wanted it for any vehicles or bikes. real cool dude, very nice, and NOT a newbie FNG.

cause of accident was 10 fold after NTSB was done. used 1/2 of runway, took off,downhill gradient,density altitude,faulty fuel control, didnt get full power, dropped down onto taxiway, pulled stick and turned left, over runway, and ended up hitting brick wall head on and burst into flames. pilot error/faulty fuel control.


sooooooooooo.....................my advice is talk it over with others, always carry at least a 5# fire ext. and a decent knife to cut belts off or cut thru aluminum, and after that, its in gawds/buddahs hands or fire rescue if there even is one close to make a difference.

my other advice since i have known for many years a few qualified real live alaskan bush pilots, is to wear a helmet(intl ORANGE). numero uno cause of death in alaska, is yer head hitting something upon landing. yeah they aint cheap to buy and when ya add comms they get damn spendy, but then whats yer life worth.

i have been witness to numerous crashes from "gear ups" , twins having inflight eng failure upon takeoff, out of gas, misjudging approach and hitting light poles, flat tires, ground loops with tail draggers etc etc etc. and general stoopid poo for quite a few years now. its part of the biz. planes ARE DANGEROUS on the ground or in the air.


good luck with this and sorry for yer loss.

[pavulon]

Originally Posted by unclebilly

So if basal skull fractures are common is small plane crashes (seems plausible), why haas nobody developed a HANS device for his application? Shoulder belts were mentioned, I imagine a helmet would need to be developed as well.

I don't feel safe on the track in any car without my Hans.

Many use private aircraft for pleasure. While certainly safer, the above would go a long way toward killing pleasure. The same for business use...tough to get suiting up for Apollo 11 and saving a few hours square in one's head. Lastly, piloting may involve the need to turn your head/torso well past 90 degrees left or right as well as substantially up and down. I've not worn a HANS but can't imagine that works well. Military pilots not wearing HANS demonstrates the point well.

[gshase]

Both people in the Arrow had severe facial impact. The pilot never responded to us and my buddy(Dr.) told me, he knew there was no help for him. The instructor had both legs broken and major injuries but managed to hold his oxygen mask in place while they were loading him on the helicopter.The pilot had been told not to fly the Arrow because the engine was running so poorly. FAA records show the plane was purchased on August 24 2012. Some wondered if the head sets with noise canceling feature could have lessened the engine issues. Witnesses stated the Arrow was very slow to accelerate and they thought just past midfield they would abort the takeoff. The Arrow was way left (east) of the runway center line in the trees; Right of center line is an open field that I tell my students to head for.

[hardflex]

which airport was this?

[widgeon13]

Good point on the noise canceling headsets. As much as I like the idea of less noise, I do like to hear the subtle changes in engine noise so I stick with the conventional DC's.

[gshase]

Google 52F, North West Regional 6 miles NW of Texas Motor Speedway

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by gshase

Google 52F, North West Regional 6 miles NW of Texas Motor Speedway

I take off and land with the headset cocked to the side so that I can hear whats going on. Last thing anyone needs is to have the sound of something going on muffled by the noise canceling headset...

Sorry to see this... RIP

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by gshase

Both people in the Arrow had severe facial impact. The pilot never responded to us and my buddy(Dr.) told me, he knew there was no help for him. The instructor had both legs broken and major injuries but managed to hold his oxygen mask in place while they were loading him on the helicopter.The pilot had been told not to fly the Arrow because the engine was running so poorly. FAA records show the plane was purchased on August 24 2012

Sad and sorry for you to witness this.

Now for my cruel statement but its a fact of life. Harness, noise canceling headsets aside but what kind of a moron pilot was this guy? Where's that extra common sense?

Regarding the arrogant thinking PP's. Following traffic pattern and final, how many of you've been cut in front of at smaller but busy airports? Check. I also have a bro-in-law who prior was, crashed with one of his ex. Flying visual only, snow country, couldn't figure his flight plan, charts and ran out of fuel! I'm not kidding! Fortunately, they survived.

Then there was the late Bob Collins, popular radio personality from Chicago. I knew Bob and his fate surely rang my bell, reminding me (quote above) at final approach at this same airport. These guys are not flying commercial jets on a schedule, but are hot dogs. Ridiculous mentality to have while flying.

Collins mid-air crash involved topling down onto a hospital roof top, the other plane was a student.

Collins died in the afternoon of February 8, 2000, after his and a student pilot's plane collided upon approach to the runway at the Waukegan Regional Airport in Waukegan, Illinois. The student pilot, Sharon Hock, was directly below him, and they were unaware of each others' presence until the collision. Collins attempted to steer his plane to a safe landing, but it crashed and burned atop a nearby hospital, killing him and a passenger. The student pilot also crashed three blocks away and died.

Well after the dust settled, Collins widow wrongly sued . That was total BS on her behaviour. The NTSB conclusion:

Collins' misreporting his Zlin 242L's position by about a mile also played into the chain of events that led to the crash over north suburban Zion on Feb. 8, 2000, said the experts, who reviewed the National Transportation Safety Board report for the Chicago Sun-Times.

An air traffic controller lost sight of both planes because weather conditions "got hazy near the water" of Lake Michigan, the federal report states. Then, based partly on the slightly errant positions Collins was reporting, the controller told student pilot Sharon Hock to make a turn that placed her Cessna 172P in Collins' path.

Of all three parties involved, Hock appears to bear the lesser--if not the least--amount of blame, the experts said. Also, both said a basic radar scope installed at Waukegan Regional Airport after the crash might have helped the controller.

"From what I saw, the student pilot was pretty good," said one of the experts, Chuck Eastlake, a 30-year pilot and aerospace engineering professor at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Fla. "She was following instructions and doing what she was told."

But among the report's revelations is how much Collins misreported his Zlin 242L's position. He was attempting to land his plane from the east on Runway 23 at Waukegan, while Hock's Cessna was in a landing pattern that would require her to turn and follow him into the airport.

The pilots probably had trouble seeing each other because of blind spots caused by Collins low-wing Zlin being higher than Hock's high-wing Cessna, federal investigators have said.

[gshase]

Joeaksa, I Have been instructing since 1980 and had never herd of headset issues ever being discussed before. I will take heed in what you say and pass it around the airport.This is a sad situation that I hope we can learn from.