So, is everybody cool if they burned the cabin down without even trying to negotiate?

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Hopefully, before gunplay commences, you'd ID the guy and/or confirm he's armed. The two trucks that were shot up obviously didn't get either courtesy.

And if I were Dorner and had seen these shot up trucks on the news, neither drivers of which came close to fitting my description, I'd take it to mean I had no chance of surrendering and would be shot on sight. So why not then go out in a "blaze" of glory?

No one is gonna argue that both the truck scenarios were both major screw ups. Thank God, they were poor shots. I can't and wouldn't even try to justify that.

But...you still haven't answered my question. How should I approach a person who may be the suspect of multiple murders, be heavily armed and trained and pretty much angry at anyone wearing a uniform. How do you think I should confirm whether he's armed or not? Flintstone said if a gun were pointed at him, he'd defend himself. Thank God again nobody was that stupid that I dealt with this last week.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Shooting up pickup trucks full of old women makes leads me to believe that the rules of engagement for California LEs is much looser than those for the military in Afghanistan. If I were a 270lb black man...I would have left the state. They used to have "To Serve and Protect" on those cars.

don't forget, this was AFTER the LAPD was all cleaned up

[Hydrocket]

Originally Posted by RWebb

don't forget, this was AFTER the LAPD was all cleaned up

Define "clean" with regards to LAPD.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by rusnak

His manifesto was posted to a password accessed account, and it says that he will kill the people who later turned up dead. Now that's not open and shut, I understand, but it certainly lends probable cause to arrest him...

Someone hacked the email of President Bush just last week...and hack others accounts of all sorts daily. Anyone can set up a password accessed account, even in someone else's name for their own uses.

Probable cause for arrest is different than shoot on sight.

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by ZOA NOM

How do we know he wasn't injured inside the cabin, unable to come out, and burned alive? The reality is that the police had the upper hand, and could have chosen another path, and the fact that they didn't isn't necessarily an indictment, but it creates doubt and concern.

I agree, we should have waited it out. Oh wait. If he had been wounded and bled out then there would be hell to pay for not rendering him aid. Well at least the cabin wouldn't have been burned down. With all the rounds thru it, I'm suspecting it would've needed major work anyways.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

Oh wait. If he had been wounded and bled out then there would be hell to pay for not rendering him aid.

Yeah, isn't that a bit ridiculous? If you engage in a gun battle with someone (particularly if you started it), there should be no expectation of life-saving aid from the other side. That we've evolved (?) into a society that has that expectation is ridiculous.

[rusnak]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Worse than making the decision to burn it down, is to then lie about it. If you're hoping to burn the guy out, at least have the guts to admit it. It was an aggressive, but not necessarily unjustified show of force.

I totally agree. Hiding from the truth makes them look really bad. On top of the other gaffes they made, they look like they can't be trusted. That's poor leadership.

[Red88Carrera]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Yeah, isn't that a bit ridiculous? If you engage in a gun battle with someone (particularly if you started it), there should be no expectation of life-saving aid from the other side. That we've evolved (?) into a society that has that expectation is ridiculous.

Have you been sleeping for the last 20 years?

[Hydrocket]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

I agree, we should have waited it out. Oh wait. If he had been wounded and bled out then there would be hell to pay for not rendering him aid. Well at least the cabin wouldn't have been burned down. With all the rounds thru it, I'm suspecting it would've needed major work anyways.

Who pays for damages in a situation where the police make a cabin (or a truck) look like Swiss Cheese??

[Red88Carrera]

Originally Posted by Hydrocket

Who pays for damages in a situation where the police make a cabin (or a truck) look like Swiss Cheese??

Taxpayers

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Someone hacked the email of President Bush just last week...and hack others accounts of all sorts daily. Anyone can set up a password accessed account, even in someone else's name for their own uses.

Probable cause for arrest is different than shoot on sight.

Agreed, but again. How do you think a LEO should go about doing that with a suspected armed, trained murderer. Maybe they should just walk right up to them, hands in pocket and ask them. I'm serious, what tactics do you think are reasonable when dealing with someone suspected of being Dorner. Do you really think having your weapon drawn is unreasonable?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

No one is gonna argue that both the truck scenarios were both major screw ups. Thank God, they were poor shots. I can't and wouldn't even try to justify that.

But...you still haven't answered my question. How should I approach a person who may be the suspect of multiple murders, be heavily armed and trained and pretty much angry at anyone wearing a uniform. How do you think I should confirm whether he's armed or not? Flintstone said if a gun were pointed at him, he'd defend himself. Thank God again nobody was that stupid that I dealt with this last week.

I think you misrepresent my post quite a bit. I said if you shoot at me. This is the exchange:

Originally Posted by fintstone

If the police are shooting at me...you had better believe I am shooting back. Actions have consequences. Police do not get to decide whether you are guilty or innocent. That is why we have trials.

Originally Posted by fintstone

Police clearly were shooting first and asking questions later. Those circumstances don't leave you many options...innocent or guilty. As an innocent man, I still would not allow myself to be executed by a cop that was self appointed judge, jury, and executioner. What would you expect him to do, just let them shoot him to make a point? What point would it make? Wouldn't they still claim he was guilty as they so now?

Originally Posted by MMARSH

...Why, because even with our guns drawn, they complied with every single direction given. But if your mind set is that as an innocent man you would not allow yourself to be executed and believing that you got out of your vehicle with a gun or confronted me with a gun, i can guarantee you the outcome would not be good for you...

Originally Posted by fintstone

...As far as an innocent man not defending himself...the police had already proved that they would shoot at cars driving by...there was obviously going to be no attempt to capture him alive. He was given no choice in the matter.

Believe me...if you confronted me with a gun under similar circumstances...the outcome might surprise you.

Believe me...if you are shooting at me...I will shoot back. Obviously, you had better do a good job of identifying exactly who you shoot at...and if you shoot, you better hit them as Dorner proved. Your gun is just like mine. It is not to track down criminals and kill them...but rather for your self-defense while perfroming your duties. Even if you are trying to kill me because you mistakenly though I was a 270lb black guy (I'm not)...just because you killed me due to your incompetence will not bring me back to life. If you but arrest me (as the Constitution requires) and give me a trial...we all come out ok. Otherwise, my second amendment rights protect me.

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by Hydrocket

Who pays for damages in a situation where the police make a cabin (or a truck) look like Swiss Cheese??

That's above my pay grade, but I suspect it will indirectly come out of all the taxpayers pocket. It's just the check might say City of Los Angeles or LAPD......

[Hydrocket]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

Do you really think having your weapon drawn is unreasonable?

No....but you said so yourself you chased down several hundred leads in the past week. Was your gun drawn every instance?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

Agreed, but again. How do you think a LEO should go about doing that with a suspected armed, trained murderer. Maybe they should just walk right up to them, hands in pocket and ask them. I'm serious, what tactics do you think are reasonable when dealing with someone suspected of being Dorner. Do you really think having your weapon drawn is unreasonable?

Obviously the LEO should approach as trained. On the other hand... after making it clear by their actions that many CA LEOs were shooting on sight...a prudent man might be ready to shoot back as opposed to being executed. You can't go to war against a man and expect him to just let himself be shot. From what I have read...in every case where Dorner shot a LEO, the LEO shot first. If that is not the case, please let me know. Also, the only reason that Dorner got caught and killed is because he did not kill the folks he tied up in the cabin....who got away and reported him. Maybe he is not the wanton killer as described. We will never know any of the facts...because he was executed.

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I think you misrepresent my post quite a bit. I said if you shoot at me. This is the exchange:










Believe me...if you are shooting at me...I will shoot back. Obviously, you had better do a good job of identifying exactly who you shoot at...and if you shoot, you better hit them as Dorner proved. Your gun is just like mine. It is not to track down criminals and kill them...but rather for your self-defense while perfroming your duties. Even if you are trying to kill me because you mistakenly though I was a 270lb black guy (I'm not)...just because you killed me due to your incompetence will not bring me back to life. If you but arrest me (as the Constitution requires) and give me a trial...we all come out ok. Otherwise, my second amendment rights protect me.

I apologize, In multitasking I misread your post.

But one correction, my gun is not just for my self-defense its also for the preservation of life. My life could be in no immediate danger whatsoever.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

I apologize, In multitasking I misread your post.

But one correction, my gun is not just for my self-defense its also for the preservation of life. My life could be in no immediate danger whatsoever.

Can't argue that...but burning a trapped man to death did neither.

[rusnak]

The two PD who Dorner ambushed did not shoot first. They didn't have an opportunity to shoot at all.
The couple that Dorner killed at their home didn't shoot at all either. I would call him a "wanton killer", absolutely 100%

I am not aware of any shoot on sight "order", only one to consider him armed and dangerous.

[Jim Bremner]

Listen.


For Ya'll that are up in arms over the torching of this suspect.

Guess what. If you want to do it be my guest, get the training earn the right and YOU go in to a house where someone is held up with firearms that has shot two cops on the front yard.

Hell, I'll even hold your beer for when you come out.

This was the right thing to do at the right time.

The house was riddled in a hail of gunfire and the damage was done. If you're not out in 1 minute we lob in the tear gas. If you get out with out fighting us well you can have your day in court.

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by Hydrocket

No....but you said so yourself you chased down several hundred leads in the past week. Was your gun drawn every instance?

Nope, some of the calls were a guy in a car looking like, driving this way. We would put an eye on it and could see it was obviously nothing. Others not so much...

Just a little FYI, I've been told several times this week I look like Dorner, we are the same height, but Im about 240 lbs.