I didn't know this-WWII

[74-911]

Originally Posted by Danimal16

I can think of at least two Russian weaknesses, Logistics and facing a strategic aerial bombardment.

What are you going to strategically bomb? The Russian army is spread out in three fronts all over eastern Europe. You can bomb their supply lines all right but don't forget the Russians have an air force consisting of tens of thousands of fighters and ground attack aircraft and they are combat proven. Air superiority to strategic bomb is nowhere near a given and would might well prove extremely costly with little real effect.

[varmint]

Originally Posted by 74-911

Actually, given the sheer size and armor advantage the soviets had in Europe in 1945 (and these were very experienced combat troops) it is quite possible (or even probable?) had the plan been tried, the next stop of the soviet armies would have been the English Channel.......

the real problem was the number of communists in the roosevelt administration.


the russians had superiority in numbers and the quality of armor. and much more practical combat experience. but the western allies would have achieved air superiority over the battlefield in a matter of weeks.

the B-29 had the combat range to make it to moscow from england. barely. soviet air defense would have made it very difficult.

[Embraer]

the 17th SS "GvB" had ceased to exist 3 months before that pulling out of France. So already their "entirely factual" recount has a HUGE hole in it.



But interesting nonetheless.



However, some of the 17th's survivors did form up with some 6th SS survivors and a cadet school from nearby Bad Tolz, and did end up in that general area at the very end of the war as a "reformed" division called the 38th SS "Nibelungen". However they pretty much just got their ass kicked for their entire existence as they had virtually no supply, were mostly replaced with Hitler Youth children, and most of the veterans were just trying to survive. That division at least existed at the time of this story and surrendered 8 May, 20 miles Northeast of that castle.



Since they were the only SS Division in the area of which I know, and were 20 miles away busily getting their asses handed to them by other American divisions (in Bavarian hills and mountains, and on foot), I kinda have to call bull**** on this one.



Fun story, though. Either they have the name of the attacking SS Division wrong, or, like most heroic war stories, are full of **** and exaggerations. A group of zealot SS-men, or more likely Waffen-SS unfortunates that were rounded up by some local Allgemeine-SS f-tards because they knew who was in the castle and wanted them terminated? Maybe. A divison? No way.

[afterburn 549]

At the end of the war I could see how they would have turned against the S.S.

[cockerpunk]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Imagine what he world would look like today if they had gone ahead with that plan.

No USSR... No Cold War. No Berlin Wall. There would be Russia but it would have been democratic since the end of the war.
What about China and Korea?... Democratic or Communist?

Would have the US gone to the moon?

The mind boggles.

we probably would have lost actually.

[look 171]

I don't think we would have lost, but pay dearly for the win and it would been drawn out with lots of lives lost. Now, the better question, who would be on our side and how much more will they want their country torn up by pushing them back. Would the Canadian and the Australian be there with us? And what benefit will they have over the win?

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by look 171

Did we have enough planes and were they capable enough to get over there to do any damage?

Yes, we had the best 4 engine bombers in the world and a bunch of them. How did the best Soviet Fighters stack up against the best we had?

And the logistics part of it. We could strike their manufacturing cores, they did not have that capability. We controlled the sea lanes.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by cockerpunk

we probably would have lost actually.

How so?

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by look 171

I don't think we would have lost, but pay dearly for the win and it would been drawn out with lots of lives lost. Now, the better question, who would be on our side and how much more will they want their country torn up by pushing them back. Would the Canadian and the Australian be there with us? And what benefit will they have over the win?

Churchill strongly influenced the Commonwealth's.

[Panzer909]

Thanks for posting. You're absolutely right - I've never heard of this story before, and was a history major with a focus on WW2

What I think is really shocking is a documented story of Frenchmen actually picking a weapon up and fighting

[RicN]

Cool thread about ww2.

An opinion piece on cracked.com about operation unthinkable:

http://www.cracked.com/article_18722_5-unfought-wars-that-would-have-changed-everything_p2.html


Operation Unthinkable



As World War II started to wind down in Europe, it became clear that the U.S. and USSR would emerge as the two dominant superpowers of Earth. This did not bode well with various Allied leaders on account of Joseph Stalin being just as big an ******* as Hitler, but seriously... what could these guys do?


The Soviets had already taken the biggest beating in history and emerged stronger than the Incredible Hulk. They possessed half of Europe, some of the best generals that ever lived and a military that now numbered something north of 10 million; the largest army in history, ever, and perhaps the most experienced one to boot. Seriously, who would want to mess with these guys, especially after winning World War II thanks enormously to their help?


Churchill's fear of a Soviet invasion of Western Europe led to the British Chiefs of Staff Committee forming Operation Unthinkable on May 22, 1945. Although Churchill insisted that the operation was purely "hypothetical," it is worth noting that the plan's "overall or political object is to impose upon Russia the will of the United States and British Empire." In short, it was a contingency plan for a Soviet invasion that the Brits knew would never be coming because it was actually Churchill's plan for a preemptive war with the Soviet Union.

Operation Unthinkable called for "the date for the opening of hostilities" on July 1, 1945, a declaration of World War III while World War II was still winding down. And it didn't help that Churchill was fully aware of America's successful nuclear tests. In his mind, the United States and the United Kingdom would United Ass Kick the USSR if the Soviets kept up their aggressive posturing in Europe.

What Stopped It:

Numbers. Sheer numbers.


Ten million commies ain't nothin' but a thang.

As blood drunk as Churchill was, his Chiefs of Staff were sober enough to recognize that the Soviet land forces outnumbered the Allies two to one. And that's after the British planned to rearm 100,000 captured German soldiers to invade the Soviet Union. Bear in mind, this would be the second time the Germans invaded the USSR.



The success of Operation Unthinkable would depend on the Americans, who weren't interested in jumping back into war while they were still fighting in the Pacific. Or, at all. Truman wasn't interested in fighting the Soviets. Ultimately, the whole thing was dropped before it got off the ground. And then Churchill was given the sack.

If The War Had Happened...

If there is one thing that should be taken out of the entire chronicle of military history, it is that Russia is really freaking hard to conquer. Hell, we're not even talking about Moscow here; Stalin was prepared all the way back to the Ural Mountains during WWII. Russia had winters, it had rivers, it had more mud than roads, it had the army that killed the most of the Germans during World War II.


The only way we could have come even close to winning this war would be if the U.S. dropped the A-bomb. Since the U.S. had only two of them in its arsenal and it took exactly two to win the war in Japan, we would have pretty much started this war by stalling the one in the Pacific.

Most likely scenario: the Soviets would have kicked the ever-loving **** out of England and marched all the way to the Channel, while Truman told Churchill "I told you so."

For more baffling plans of war, check out Nuke the Moon: 5 Certifiably Insane Cold War Projects. Or learn about some conflicts that were just plain stupid, in The 5 Most Retarded Wars Ever Fought.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Panzer909

Thanks for posting. You're absolutely right - I've never heard of this story before, and was a history major with a focus on WW2

What I think is really shocking is a documented story of Frenchmen actually picking a weapon up and fighting

Well other than at Oran. The Vichy paid for it in the end, bastards.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by 74-911

What are you going to strategically bomb? The Russian army is spread out in three fronts all over eastern Europe. You can bomb their supply lines all right but don't forget the Russians have an air force consisting of tens of thousands of fighters and ground attack aircraft and they are combat proven. Air superiority to strategic bomb is nowhere near a given and would might well prove extremely costly with little real effect.

Granted, it would be bloody. BUT they did not have the ability to destroy our industrial base, whereas we did. In order for them to destroy our lines of supply, they would need to have a substantial Navy which they did not.

Now, strategic bombing has NOTHING to do with the location of the operation groups as much as it does with two critical areas, manufacturing base and lines of communication. Remember, amateurs talk tactics, professionals focus on Logistics.

[Jim Bremner]

Ireland pardoning thousands who deserted Irish army to fight for Britain in World War II | Fox News

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

At the end of the war I could see how they would have turned against the S.S.

Yes, and don't forget it were Wehrmacht officers who conspired to kill Hitler and neutralize the SS in 1944. And they almost succeeded!

[Joe Bob]

Despite their personal enmities and long-held political grudges, when it came to a fight the French VIPs finally put aside their political differences and picked up weapons to join in the fight against the attacking SS troops.

Wonder how long it took for them to drop and surrender?

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by porwolf

Yes, and don't forget it were Wehrmacht officers who conspired to kill Hitler and neutralize the SS in 1944. And they almost succeeded!

Can you imagine if Hitler had listened to his Generals?

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

[I][

Wonder how long it took for them to drop and surrender?

Are you kidding, that would put a ding in the rifle!

[emcon5]

Hmm. A google search turned up a archive of "Hellcat News" - 12th Armored Division

Excerpts from divisional newspaper printed in Germany shortly after V-E Day.


Lone Sentry: "Hellcat News" - 12th Armored Division WWII Newspaper, May 1945, Germany

Half way down, on the right side:

12th Men Free French Big-Wigs

By Cpl. John G. Mayer
Co. B, 23rd Tank Bn.

American troops, soldiers of the Wehrmacht, and a handful of French personages slated for death by the SS, fought side by side in an alpine castle on the last day of the war in Bavaria.

Among the 14 French notables rescued by tankers of the 12th Armored Division were former Premier Edouard Daladier, aging General Maxim Weygand who commanded the French armies when the Germans broke through into France, tennis star Jean Borotra and his wife, and a sister of the present chief executive of France, General Charles de Gaulle.

Also in the strangely mixed pro-and-anti-Nazi group were former premier Paul Reynaud; General Maurice Gamelin, former commanding general of all the French armies; Mrs. Weygand; Colonel DeLaRoque, former French fascist leader; M. Caillaux, former member of the government; Leon Jouhaux, French labor union leader; and Michel Clemencau, son of the World War I statesman.

Top heroes of the scenario-scrap were Lieutenant John C. Leo, Jr., commanding officer of Company B of the 23rd Tank Battalion, and his gunner, Corporal Edward J. Szymcyk.

Across the Border

Their saga began the afternoon of May 4 shortly after their platoon took Kufstein, just across the Austrian border, after knifing through a well-defended roadblock. Into the town came a German major, under a flag of truce, who said that he was in position to surrender a large force of enemy troops and 14 notables once connected with the pre-Petain governments of France.

All, he said, were at a castle in Litter, eight kilometers away. Lee and Szymcyk immediately left with the major but when they arrived, the German colonel in command refused to surrender.

Back in Kufstein, Lee picked up his reinforcements -- two tanks from his own outfit and five more from the 36th Infantry Division's 142nd Battalion. With Lee and Szymcyk went Lieutenant Harry Basse, Santa Ana, Cal., maintenance officer and the tanks' crews. At the town of Worgl the force paused. Lee, leaving the others behind, took his own medium tank with five volunteers, said goodbye to his rear-guard, and rumbled on to the castle, the faithful major trailing in his car.

Then began the classic defense of the ancient "schloss", which had not known battle since the days of crossbow and boiling oil. The defenders numbered 41 -- there were 20 soldiers of the Wehrmacht (German regular army), 14 French men and women, and seven Americans.

At 4 o'clock on the morning of May 5, a small force of SS men launched an attack up the slope toward the castle. American rifles and German light machine guns teamed up to beat them back.

Tennis Star Helps

"Jean Borotra was the spark of the defense," Leo recalls. "He volunteered to jump over the castle wall and make his way to Worgl to summon help. It meant a run across forty yards of open field before he could reach cover. I refused."

But half an hour later things started looking tougher, so Lee permitted Borotra, whose name ranks among the immortals of tennis history, to make what was a brave but futile dash. Soon after he left tanks of the 36th were sighted far away.

Guessing that they hadn't received Borotra's message and regarded the castle as simply another German stronghold to be blasted out of the way, Lee and Weygand quickly teamed up on an American 30-calibre machine gun and opened fire sending long bursts crackling into the woods well ahead of the approaching tanks.

"It worked," Lee said. "Later I found that the tankers had their heavy guns trained on the castle ready to fire when they recognized the sound of the American 'thirty' and decided it was a signal rather than a threat."

So the possibility of being killed by their own rescuers was averted for Lee and his men, who included, in addition to those already named, Technical Sergeant William E. Elliott, Corporal Edward J. Seiner, and Pfc. Herbert G. McHaley, Linton RFD 1, Ind.

Sgt. Glenn E. Shermann of Cameron, Mo., served as radioman and gunner on Elliot's tank. Pvt Joseph Wall, Selma, N.C., was left to guard the bridge alone all night, armed only with a carbine, and took a number of prisoners.

The SS, however, had no compunctions about blasting away at the castle. Their 88 shells crashed through thick walls into several rooms, wounding a German.

Last Fight on Front

At 3 o'clock on the afternoon of the 5th, the cautiously-advancing tanks of the relief force, led by Elliott and Sherman, after 16 hours pounded through the opposition and arrived at the castle like mechanized cowboys in a new-style Western movie. Lee's saga was ended. His tank, "Besotten Jenny," as she was fondly dubbed by the Negro troops, was kaput. All the infantry peeps were filled with notables. So Lee and his heroes climbed onto a truck loaded with German prisoners and rode ingloriously back to their outfit. They arrived just in time to hear the radio broadcast that all German troops in the south had agreed to stop shooting that day at noon. Theirs had been the last fighting on the whole southern front.

But there's a postscript: a few days later Lee's promotion to Captain was announced and his men have all been cited for decorations.

[look 171]

Wow, how did you managed to fine that? Of all things, in the Hellcat news. What did you goggle?