Things I learned from today's F1 GP

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by javadog

I wonder what would have happened if Webber had just kept his third set and nursed them to the finish. Seems like he had enough cushion to lose a second a lap.

I can't understand why they brought him in so early on his first stop. If his times weren't dropping, they don't gain anything in terms of strategy, they just reduce the chance to change strategy later in the race.

JR

I wondered the same things during the race. Webber was very upbeat after the race. I wonder how he feels now, after he's had a chance to debrief with his team.

It was interesting to hear Vettel's near-despair during his radio transmissions at the end of the race. I've never heard him like that before. Sounds like he was seriously concerned Webber was going to eat him up with ease.

[lowyder993s]

At least someone got over on Vettel this weekend:

Lewis Hamilton Plays With His Balls, Shakes Sebastian Vettel's Hand - YouTube

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Noah930

It was interesting to hear Vettel's near-despair during his radio transmissions at the end of the race. I've never heard him like that before. Sounds like he was seriously concerned Webber was going to eat him up with ease.

He's done that many times before. This week he was a little more animated than normal. It would be interesting to have more access to the team-driver radio transmissions. We get to hear just a fraction of them.

Vettel has talent but it seems he unravels a bit at times, when under pressure. No idea why... it doesn't seem like he lacks confidence when he is out of the car.

JR

[Don Plumley]

Originally Posted by lowyder993s

At least someone got over on Vettel this weekend:

Lewis Hamilton Plays With His Balls, Shakes Sebastian Vettel's Hand - YouTube

Coffee on screen...

[motion]

Originally Posted by lowyder993s

At least someone got over on Vettel this weekend:

Lewis Hamilton Plays With His Balls, Shakes Sebastian Vettel's Hand - YouTube

That's pretty hilarious, but completely classless, IMHO. Looks like something Kimi would do... or a 3rd grader. That's just gonna piss Vettel off and he's going to extract revenge on the rest of the field.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by legion

There's a guy here at work who is a huge Kimi fan. I run into him maybe once a month. I bumped into him last week and asked him about Kimi. He just shook his head. He said that he doesn't think Kimi has the temperement to overcome Alonso's cunning and treachery.

I wonder the same thing, Alonso has already been throwing barbs out to the press. Ferrari has looked pretty dupe ever since acquiring Alonso. Alonso tries to center it all around him, and there are two cars out there. The Alonso/Massa pairing was not going to win a WCC. Maybe, maybe, a a WDC, but not WCC. Kimi/Massa would be good, and Kimi/Alonso is a great unknown to probably everyone. Kimi, follows the $$$, as he expects if they have the faith to pay him that much, that they also expect the results - and it takes a good car to get those results.

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

The Alonso/Massa pairing was not going to win a WCC. Maybe, maybe, a a WDC, but not WCC.

I disagree. If Ferarri had a reasonably competitive car, (Really, if Red Bull wasn't so far ahead of the rest of the field) they could do both. The fact that they have done reasonably well despite the quality of their cars the last few years is because Alonso is punching so far above the weight of the car.

Alonso & Kimi should do fine, if the Scudaria manages to put a decent car under them.

[sammyg2]

Ferrari isn't going to have an F1 car next year.

Because of rules changes (V6 engine), they're going to call it a Dino

[jyl]

Finally watched the race. Webber got screwed. Vettel sounded like a baby. Grosjean did proud. I'll be glad to see this season end.

[Henry Schmidt]

A pretty accurate analysis from Keith Collantine.

When Vettel caught Grosjean his tyres were eight laps newer and of the same compound; when Webber caught the Lotus his tyres were up to twelve laps newer (less any further distance he had covered on them in qualifying) and he was on the faster medium compound. Yet Vettel passed Grosjean after a single lap while Webber took six to force his way by.

Before catching Grosjean, Webber took almost two seconds out of Vettel’s lead in as many laps. If he’d cleared the Lotus as quickly as Vettel did it appears he would have been able to catch his team mate and potentially pass him, though Webber is sceptical about that.

Ultimately their strategies helped both drivers pass Grosjean. But what made the difference and allowed Vettel to come out on top was his raw pace.


Vettel qualified a tenth of a second slower than Webber despite losing KERS in Q3 which cost him four to five tenths of a second. That suggests he had around three tenths in hand over Webber, a supposition backed up by their lap times from Q2, when both drivers had working KERS.

If Webber had been three-tenths of a second quicker he would have had a chance to come out ahead of Vettel at the end of his third stint. He certainly wouldn’t have been stuck behind Grosjean.

Given Vettel’s performance advantage, whatever strategies Red Bull chose he was always going to make that count once he got into free air. What probably did for Webber’s chances of beating him was the confluence of events that allowed Red Bull to split their drivers’ strategies, which was their best chance of beating Lotus.
Japanese Grand Prix tyre strategy

"Raw pace"

[javadog]

Nobody doubts that Vettel is the faster driver. The question in my mind was whether or not Webber could have held onto the lead had he not stopped that last time. If you look at the lap charts, the tire degredation wasn't bad. Then, throw into the mix that there was traffic in the last half dozen laps of the race that slowed everybody down, so those laps would have been easy on the tires. He had a big lead before his last stop....

JR

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by javadog

Nobody doubts that Vettel is the faster driver. The question in my mind was whether or not Webber could have held onto the lead had he not stopped that last time. If you look at the lap charts, the tire degredation wasn't bad. Then, throw into the mix that there was traffic in the last half dozen laps of the race that slowed everybody down, so those laps would have been easy on the tires. He had a big lead before his last stop....

JR

The best collection of minds on the pit wall (RBR), reading a terabyte of data, anodized that data and determined that Webber would have finished behind Grosjean. Unless you believe that Webber was sabotaged by RBR (reminiscent of the grassy knoll), it's hard to argue with the call.

[javadog]

Or, you can accept what they said which was they used two different strategies for their drivers, as it was a close call between which one was better to beat Lotus. The strategy was set before the race and they chose to not modify it. I think Webber had a 14 second lead with about that same number of laps left and it's one thing to catch him and another to pass him. He's hard to pass.

Like I said, it just seemed odd that they pitted him so early, well before the tires went off and kept him on short stints. There is usually a saftey car in the Suzuka race, so running longer stints would seem to have been the better strategy.

If I was Webber, I might have argued that last call and stayed out. I'd rather have a victory in my last year than another second or third. No risk to his title hopes, Red Bull's position in the constructor's championship, or his job.

JR

[yellowperil]

Originally Posted by javadog

Or, you can accept what they said which was they used two different strategies for their drivers, as it was a close call between which one was better to beat Lotus. The strategy was set before the race and they chose to not modify it. I think Webber had a 14 second lead with about that same number of laps left and it's one thing to catch him and another to pass him. He's hard to pass.

Like I said, it just seemed odd that they pitted him so early, well before the tires went off and kept him on short stints. There is usually a saftey car in the Suzuka race, so running longer stints would seem to have been the better strategy.

If I was Webber, I might have argued that last call and stayed out. I'd rather have a victory in my last year than another second or third. No risk to his title hopes, Red Bull's position in the constructor's championship, or his job.

JR

Sound analogy. Webber should have said. " I'm stayin' out, mate "

[emcon5]

Interesting assessment of the Red Bull strategy call:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/10/analysis-did-red-bull-favour-vettel-over-webber-in-japanese-gp-strategy-calls/

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by yellowperil

Sound analogy. Webber should have said. " I'm stayin' out, mate "

In which case , he (Webber) might have finished a fading 3rd. Good? probably not.
Instead of having a chance (if he could pass Grosjean) for at least a battle with Seb.

[Henry Schmidt]

Check out Vettels second stint and the speed late into the run. That's were the race was one.

[javadog]

Yeah, but look at Webber's third stint...

JR

[jyl]

My read is, w/ 14 laps to go Webber is ahead by about the same number of seconds. If he stays out and loses less than 1 sec/lap, he wins, Vettel is second, RB is 1-2. If he stays out and loses more than 1 sec/lap and Vettel successfully passes him, RB is 1-2. Only if he loses more than 1 sec/lap and both Vettel and Grosjean successfully pass him, does RB fail to finish 1-2.

Instead, they chose a strategy that has RB 1-2 only if Webber can close about 10 sec in 14 laps on Grosjean and then successfully pass him.

Seems that if your goal is RB 1-2, the higher odds is to leave Webber out. But if your goal is RB 1-2 with Vettel 1, then they did the logical thing.

[cl8ton]

Vettel 1st India = WDC, but Fred and Blondie know the secret now...
2014 gonna be good for Scuderia