Question on how to ensure clean ownership transfer of guns

[jhynesrockmtn]

The story is long and complicated. I'll try and simplify. My son is a 21 year old soon to be Army 2nd Lt. who has always idolized his Grandfather on my exes side. He's a retired Navy Captain who is a brilliant but quite troubled man. He's gotten himself in deep financial and now legal trouble. My ex is "holding" his gun collection as he's now not allowed to have them. Some of the guns have significant sentimental value for my son but due to his Grandfather's legal troubles he's told my ex to sell them to pay his attorney. I want to buy the ones my son wants to keep. How do we ensure he can't claim they are his even after money has exchanged hands? Simple bill of sale with his signature? He has claimed ownership of some things he "gave" to my ex to offset monies she has given him to pay bills in the past. I think a combination of him being a selfish ass and dementia are both at play here. Very sad situation. She is "done" with him after selling some things to help pay these bills off. He has mentally abused that poor woman since she was a kid.

[RANDY P]

I would imagine a bill of sale would do it- signed with his DL on there-

Also, your kid has possession of the gun as well- never give it back to grandpa, no matter what he says.

rjp

[onewhippedpuppy]

There are a number of generic gun bill of sale forms online, just use one of those. Personal info, driver's license, gun SN, signature, done. If you want to really get carried away you could do an FFL transfer, but it's not necessary in most states for a person to person transfer.

[Arizona_928]

Go to Arizona. Here's the last walther I bought.
Seller: "Are you 21"?
Me: "Yep"
Seller: "Have the cash"
Me: "Yep"

I honestly can say I don't know the guys name, or even spot him in a lineup. I love Arizona...

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

There are a number of generic gun bill of sale forms online, just use one of those. Personal info, driver's license, gun SN, signature, done. If you want to really get carried away you could do an FFL transfer, but it's not necessary in most states for a person to person transfer.

Pretty much.

And think of it this way, if he's that broke can he really afford an attorney to help him recover items that he's not allowed to posses in the 1st place?

What would he do if you sold to a non family member? How would he go about getting them back?

Don't think of the buyer as your son, he's a buyer like anyone else, proceed accordingly.

Plus, he's not going to live forever.

Just make sure you pay fair market value.

Maybe get a few independent appraisals from local firearms retailers.

[HHI944]

Originally Posted by NotaBRG

So later when he reports them as stolen you're pretty much be screwed. At least get a bill of sale.

The issue isn't so much about what it is, but how to ensure he doesn't come back later and claim that you took advantage of him. It'd be the same if you were buying his Rolex.

This, with the caveat of possession of a stolen firearm is a federal nono.

Does your ex have power of attorney? What is the determining factor of gramps not being able to keep the guns?

[GWN7]

His signature on a bill of sale describing the gun with serial number and notarised or witnessed by a commissioner of oaths.

He then can't come back and say he didn't sell them or they were sold without his permission or he didn't know what he was signing.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by NotaBRG

So later when he reports them as stolen you're pretty much be screwed. At least get a bill of sale.

Or when he finds out the guy he can't even pick out of a lineup sold him stolen guns.

AZ_porschekid, you might do well to be a bit more cautious with dealings that can come back to bite you in the ass.

[vash]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Or when he finds out the guy he can't even pick out of a lineup sold him stolen guns.



AZ_porschekid, you might do well to be a bit more cautious with dealings that can come back to bite you in the ass.

There's this other trusting kid who recently let his bike go for partial payment. He then...wait....never mind


Sent via Jedi mind trick.

[id10t]

If you are crossing state lines, they must go thru an FFL on the receiving end. Some states require FFL for in-state transfers as well.

So, either the FFL will prove chain of ownership, or if you live in the same state and can do a FTF transfer then a bill of sale listing serial numbers, etc.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by vash

There's this other trusting kid who recently let his bike go for partial payment. He then...wait....never mind


Sent via Jedi mind trick.

I took care of George on that thing.

Will give you a call later if convenient.

[vash]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

I took care of George on that thing.



Will give you a call later if convenient.

I'm sitting In a turkey blind right now. Can't talk.



Sent via Jedi mind trick.

[Rinty]

Jerry;

I would steer clear of buying any of grandpa's property, because if he gets more agitated over time, he may start directing his energy your way, regardless of how carefully you documented the transaction. Also, he may end up associating you with his problems, directly, or indirectly via your ex, with whom he also has issues.

As an attorney, I've seen similar family property transactions end up very badly.

Perhaps, when grandpa eventually passes, there will be some other momentos left, by which your son can remember him.

Good luck.

[Taz's Master]

Find a gun shop you can trust. Settle, with your ex, on a price for the guns you want for your son. Settle with the gun shop for the remainder of the collection (either price for the rest or have them sell them on consignment). Then have the gun shop transfer the guns you want to keep, to you. Then if grandpa gets mad, the guns were sold to the shop, don't tell him you have any of them.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by vash

There's this other trusting kid who recently let his bike go for partial payment. He then...wait....never mind


Sent via Jedi mind trick.

It's all about the read. I'm not buying guns( or selling a bike) from/to guys decked out in blue or red. Let alone south/west Phoenix.

Y'all are paranoid...

[jhynesrockmtn]

Thanks for the advice. I'll pass it along. He would never know I was involved. This is all going through my ex. I would only be helping with the $'s end of it.

He ended up with a protection order against him from his ex wife, not my exes Mom who passed away several years ago. He has now violated that order.

This is a very sad case of stubborn old f*ck and diminished capacity. my ex does not and will not seek power of attorney or having him declared incompetent. She broached that subject a few years back while things were getting bad and was told to mind her own business. All other things of sentimental value are gone. Sadly, many things my ex mother in law wanted to go to her daughter and grandkids have long since disappeared. This is a man who retired as a captain with no debt, paid cash for his nice home, etc. who is now a half million in debt because spending money is one of his forms of self medication. Truly sad.

I am truly worried that once my ex cuts him off, he'll try leaning on my son for support. I only hope he is smart enough and understands his grandfathers disease enough to say no.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by AZ_porschekid

Y'all are paranoid...

Life'll do that to ya.

Experience, IMHO, is best explained as the sum of our mistakes.

Put another way, sometimes it's better to know what not to do than what to do.

[on2wheels52]

Originally Posted by AZ_porschekid

Go to Arizona. Here's the last walther I bought.
Seller: "Are you 21"?
Me: "Yep"
Seller: "Have the cash"
Me: "Yep"

I honestly can say I don't know the guys name, or even spot him in a lineup. I love Arizona...

From publication 3317.2 that my friendly ATF investigator left with me:

"If you do not have an (FFL).......You may not acquire from or dispose of firearms to residents in any state other than your own."

Jim

[Rinty]

Originally Posted by jhynesrockmtn

I am truly worried that once my ex cuts him off, he'll try leaning on my son for support.

Now might be a good time to have a discussion with your son about the old maxim:

"No good deed shall go unpunished."

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by id10t

If you are crossing state lines, they must go thru an FFL on the receiving end. Some states require FFL for in-state transfers as well.

So, either the FFL will prove chain of ownership, or if you live in the same state and can do a FTF transfer then a bill of sale listing serial numbers, etc.

do this. in or out of state..