Tony Stewart, this is not good

[David Goodman]

I'm with you. They were under yellow and had been for some time.

A pro driver under caution is going to have his head on a swivel looking for obstructions.

I won't speculate as to what he saw or didn't see, or if it was avoidable from TS's perspective, but all this talk about reaction time and visibility is a red herring.

One thing is for sure. That kid should have never done what he did.

Originally Posted by skipdup

It's been reported and seems generally accepted the car was doing 35 - 40 mph.
From personal experience, 40 mph, after being in race conditions, feels like (literally) 5 mph, at least to me. With the heightened senses, it's hard to miss much at that speed - again, from my perspective (for whatever that's worth).

Too bad TS either wasn't running or hasn't released GoPro footage. I think that would answer all questions. Heck, any other camera view might help (though, I don't want to watch that poor kid die any more times).

[wayner]

It is too bad that the poor kid didn't see what was about to happen.
This was a tragic end to inexperience.

There were so many alternate possibilities that were dependent on his decisions.
It started with the pass and his inability to judge where Tony's car was going after the apex.
Tony's wheels were ahead and his trajectory was towards the wall, the kid had already been passed but didn't let that fact go. Instead he waited until he ran out of room.

It is like the novice road racer trying an inside pass from too far away and T boning the leader at the apex.

He still couldn't let it go. Every decision that he made after that point was also terrible and tragic.

I wish there was a way to infuse experience into the young without them having to touch the stove to find out for themselves.

I hope Tony Stewart can eventually let this go.
I hope the boy's parents can eventually recover from this
i would hate to see anyone connect end up like Robin Williams.

I hate that this thread even has to exist.

[Tervuren]

I counted twelve cars making contact under yellow in this clip. Should they all be penalized for wrecking while the yellow is out?

The yellow came out seven seconds after the first wreck in this clip. Any collision in the first seven seconds is ok, any collision after those seven seconds should be a penalty then?

2009 NASCAR Kyle Busch causes big wreck at New Hampshire Motor Speedway - YouTube

There is an extremely chaotic time when a caution is called that is extremely unsafe. To think that this incident happened "under yellow" in conventional road racing circumstances of coming back around behind a pace car two minutes later in an orderly fashion is absurd.

Given a 7-10 second delay to yellow at a 15-17 second track, and a 2-3 second delay to hear the caution and process to slow down, Tony, who would not of known Ward spun and put a tire down, would be on the front straight setting up his turn by the time the caution comes up. Since you tend to look left going in - the driver's in front of tony would see the stopped car, and whoah it up, as they did indeed do, and as did Tony, however, this doesn't leave much room or time to slow down and move to the bottom of the track. When you expect the guy behind you(even if he isn't there) to run into you, you take a little extra time to slow down as well.

I think some here fail to understand the short time frame of a track like this, from when someone wrecks behind you, to when you come up on them again.

Just some food for thought here. This is my last post until the police close their case or receive new evidence.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

There is an extremely chaotic time when a caution is called that is extremely unsafe. To think that this incident happened "under yellow" in conventional road racing circumstances of coming back around behind a pace car two minutes later in an orderly fashion is absurd.


....


I think some here fail to understand the short time frame of a track like this, from when someone wrecks behind you, to when you come up on them again.

Even at Watkins Glen this past weekend there was a wreck under caution. The leaders cross start/finish and the wreck happened in the back by pit in. They pulled the yellow and the pace car came out and almost got hit with the full field bearing down on it Then some more back of the back rounded 1 and hit the turn 2 flag stand.



Remember, this whole event lasted 30 seconds. From wreck to dead in 30 seconds.

[wayner]

Bad things can happen under yellow, even if the driver is inside the car.

In another thread I was flabbergasted when after an ALMS crash video, others criticized the spectators and camera man for not jumping in and helping the driver. The professional helpers are paid for that, and they know the risk, as well as when to wait for the action to settle down.

Then again even the pros make mistakes. This video isn't as bad, but it makes the point
(Skip the intro and fast forward to 1 minute in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eGumLqAihI

[cashflyer]

Originally Posted by skipdup

Also, anyone else shocked by the visibility in the video above (GP at eye-level).
Everyone's been saying these guys have to drive, essentially, by braille.

How well do you see to the right? Ie; the side that Ward was on.
At night.

[Craig T]

Originally Posted by David Goodman

One thing is for sure. That kid should have never done what he did.

The Porsche Owners Club racing program drills one rule into students from the point you start DE's all the way through the Cup racing schools..."NEVER GET OUT OF YOUR CAR ON A LIVE TRACK UNLESS IT'S ON FIRE!". That rule includes full course yellow.

We may never know the full story in this case, but one thing is for certain...The kid should have waited for the pits to put his red mist to Stewart. The situation would have been avoided regardless of Stewart's innocence or ill intent.

[emcon5]

From: Yes, Tony Stewart did run over a fellow driver, but understand the entire situation : Dunn County News

When witnessing a sprint car moving around the track prior to a race you will notice the front tires bouncing erratically side to side. The erratic movement is caused by the alignment of the front wheels being nearly parallel to each other (compared to a minimal toe in or toe out on a standard automobile), and the quick ratio of the steering gear to steering wheel movement (allowing a driver to quickly counter steer when traveling sideways around a corner at 100+ miles per hour). Secondly, trying to harness a 700 horsepower engine at idle is nearly as intense as driving at full speed. These engines are violent in their behaviors and extremely explosive to the smallest “twitch” of the throttle. The throttle is controlled by your foot/ankle movements strapped to a lever directly fastened to the engine. Idle to full throttle is about 4” maximum movement. Sprint cars are setup to steer right, but turn left. This may be confusing, but the dynamics of a sprint car cause it to be more stable at higher speeds traveling “sideways” around the race track. The engine is directly linked to the rear tires. There is no clutch, no transmission, resulting in no stopping with the engine running and in gear, also resulting in violent movements again when the throttle is twitched. There is only a brake on the left front tire, and the solid rear axle, causing the car to lurch leftward when applying the brake, and requiring a slight steer to the right when moving slowly to keep the car going straight.

While at racing speeds the sprint car’s suspension is under load, the dynamics of the wind on the wing panels, and the rear stagger (difference in diameter of the rear tires) all react with each other in these amazing machines to enable them to be some of the fastest in the Dirt Motorsports Industry, but all these factors also mean that even for someone as experienced as Tony Stewart, the car is going to jump around at low speeds.

When piloting a sprint car during a caution flag speeds here is the typical rundown of a driver:

Grab a tear off (plastic covering over your shield removed when covered with dirt/mud)
Open your shield to cool down and wipe your eyes of dirt.
Move your top wing backward on the chassis for more drive on the restart
Stretch your fingers/hands from gripping the wheel so intensely while at race speed
Double check gauges to verify they are within appropriate operating constraints
Find your spot and the car you should be restarting behind
All while harnessing an erratic, explosive, violently idling engine, usually with one hand!

One of the other difficulties with piloting a sprint car is the extremely limited visibility. When comparing to a Nascar Car, a Dirt Modified, or even your daily driver with an 8 feet wide by 3 feet tall windshield or opening to view out of, a sprint car is limited to an opening of approximately 24 inches by 8 inches. To multiply the problem is a wing panel to the right that protrudes below your line of sight blocking all vision on the right side of the car, and a nose wing directly in your line of sight in front. Then when factoring in the safety equipment of a full containment seat (supports on both sides of the seat for your helmet), a HANS device (safety device strapping the helmet back to the seat, not allowing a whiplash effect) the driver's field of vision is even further limited. To better understand the limited visibility I invite you to take a box from a 24 pack of soda. Cut a circle on the side of the box, and open one end. Put your head in the circle and look out the open end of the box. This will simulate the limited visibility of piloting a sprint car.

There is more to the article. Good read.

[emcon5]

And Robin Miller chimes in:

Latest Stories - MILLER: Tony Stewart and the tragedy at Canandaigua

Another good read.

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by emcon5

And Robin Miller chimes in:

Latest Stories - MILLER: Tony Stewart and the tragedy at Canandaigua

Another good read.

Nailed it.

[Craig T]

He did nail it.

Quote "--- you can't help but wonder what might have happened if the kid had waited until after the race to confront Stewart.--- Stewart might have put his arm around Ward and given him a couple grand to fix the car because that's the way he can be at times" End Quote

I've been been cup racing Porsches on and off for 20 years. I've been both the aggressor and defender of track incidents many times...But always in the pits. I had one guy laugh at me and tell me to come back in exactly one hour when the "red mist" faded. He said if I was still mad in an hour, he'd be glad to yell back at me. He was right and we're friends now.

I'm truly sorry for Ward and his family, but all this judgment on Stewart, with VERY little on why somebody got out of his car on a hot track to fight a moving racecar...I don't get it.

[skipdup]

The more I read, the more it seems getting out of the car and acting like a fool is common at these kinds of events. Part of the deal, if you will.
So if that's true, if it's in fact common, is it really so astonishing someone did it?

Of course the only real evidence that something sinister could have occurred and this wasn't an open-and-shut case of wrong place/wrong time is the apparent audio of Stewart's throttle blipping. A few Tony's friends called to say they're worried he might have tried to squirt a little dirt on Ward or scare the kid and misjudged the distance.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by Craig T

I've been been cup racing Porsches on and off for 20 years. I've been both the aggressor and defender of track incidents many times...But always in the pits. I had one guy laugh at me and tell me to come back in exactly one hour when the "red mist" faded. He said if I was still mad in an hour, he'd be glad to yell back at me. He was right and we're friends now.

Ha! That's awesome!

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by skipdup

The more I read, the more it seems getting out of the car and acting like a fool is common at these kinds of events. Part of the deal, if you will.
So if that's true, if it's in fact common, is it really so astonishing someone did it?

Who are you quoting? Who are these mysterious "friends" of Stewart? How can anyone say that the throttle blip was Stewart, when the video is from a crappy cell phone camera 100 yards away, with ~20 other cars on the track? How do you "squirt" hard packed, rubbered in clay?

[skipdup]

Originally Posted by emcon5

Who are you quoting? Who are these mysterious "friends" of Stewart? How can anyone say that the throttle blip was Stewart, when the video is from a crappy cell phone camera 100 yards away, with ~20 other cars on the track? How do you "squirt" hard packed, rubbered in clay?

Watch the first 6 seconds of the original video again. Are you disputing the cars are spraying dirt/etc?

I was quoting the last article linked (the Robin Miller article). I should have clarified that.

Interesting that the driver of car #19 says he could see Ward "clear as day" when he passed him.
Driver on Tony Stewart Crash That Killed Kevin Ward: 'It Didn't Seem Real' - NBC News

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by emcon5

Sprint cars turn with the throttle. And you don't know what you are talking about.

ROFL!

wait... you're serious.

[skipdup]

[skipdup]

From the NBC link above...

Kinney, driving his No. 19K car in the race on Saturday night in upstate New York, did not see the fatal collision, but moments earlier, he did see Kevin Ward Jr. standing on the track — furious with Stewart after Stewart buzzed him and Ward spun out.

“I drove right by him,” Kinney told NBC News in a phone interview Monday. “He looked a little bit angry. I didn’t think much of it. A lot of drivers do that.”

...

“That’s obviously not a racing incident,” he said. “It’s not a good idea to get out of your car and run towards other cars. But nobody can speak for Tony. Only Tony knows exactly what happened.”

Still, he said: “I seen Kevin clear as day. Nobody else ran into him, either.”

...

[ZOA NOM]

My prediction is that there will be no criminal charges, unless Tony had a camera in his car, which will certainly show him hit the throttle and turn the wheel, but there will be a civil suit that results in a very large undisclosed settlement so the whole thing will go away. Tony will have to live with his stupid move for the rest of his life.

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by ZOA NOM

ROFL!

wait... you're serious.

You know how I know you have read nothing in this thread? Or read anything posted on the topic by anyone who actually races sprint cars?

Short wheelbase, locked rear axle, 4 different size tires. You steer with the throttle as much as with the steering wheel.

Originally Posted by skipdup

Stewart's car is on the left, yeah, there is a little dust from the racing surface, when a car is at a 100+ MPH drift, but hardly a "squirt". Ward's car is on the right, almost off the racing surface, on the less packed "cushion", and yeah, once you are off the racing line they will throw some dirt.

So, if Ward had stayed up by his car, and Stewart had a reason to be mad (which based on the video he did not), and had Ward stayed up by the edge of the track, and Stewart threw it sideways well in advance of getting to him, he might have "squirted" him with dirt.

Originally Posted by skipdup

From the NBC link above...

Kinney, driving his No. 19K car in the race on Saturday night in upstate New York, did not see the fatal collision, but moments earlier, he did see Kevin Ward Jr. standing on the track — furious with Stewart after Stewart buzzed him and Ward spun out.

“I drove right by him,” Kinney told NBC News in a phone interview Monday. “He looked a little bit angry. I didn’t think much of it. A lot of drivers do that.”

A lot of drivers are morons evidently, and the various sanctioning bodies are morons for allowing it to happen long enough it has become part of the culture.

“That’s obviously not a racing incident,” he said. “It’s not a good idea to get out of your car and run towards other cars.

Ya think?

But nobody can speak for Tony. Only Tony knows exactly what happened.”

and lots of idiots on the internet.

Still, he said: “I seen Kevin clear as day. Nobody else ran into him, either.”

Yet he still had to take evasive action to avoid him, and he didn't have another car right in front of him, like Stewart did. Nobody else hit him because he hadn't charged in front of any other cars.

Originally Posted by ZOA NOM

My prediction is that there will be no criminal charges, unless Tony had a camera in his car, which will certainly show him hit the throttle and turn the wheel,

Certainly The police say they have another video, but have not made it public.

but there will be a civil suit that results in a very large undisclosed settlement so the whole thing will go away.

Probably. Lack of actual evidence fault has never stopped

Tony will have to live with Ward's stupid move for the rest of his life.

Fixed it for you.