Tony Stewart, this is not good

[skipdup]

We've also seen plenty of video showing guys turning these cars without using the gas.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

I'm curious as to why we haven't heard any eyewitness accounts of the incident. You know, the people that witnessed it in person, and not on the Internet..

Respect for the dead driver. I wonder if the other video is clearer or lightening up this one makes it more clear. Let the furor die down.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by emcon5

Here is a better quality slow-mo:
BETTER QUALITY: Tony Stewart Hits Sprint Car Driver Kevin Ward Jr (SLOW MOTION) - YouTube

To me it looks like Stewart's car is already pitched left as it comes into frame, implying he hit the brakes. Sprint cars have brakes only on the left front wheel and rear axle. Then the car kicks to the left, like he hit the gas, and the larger right rear tire kicked the car to the left away from Ward.

It also looks like Ward is hanging on the wing. Not sure though,but sure looks like it.




Sprint cars are single gear, direct drive. He was probably at idle. People who actually drive sprint cars, not just internet experts, say that a lot of steering of a sprint car is done with the throttle.

The guy who was two cars behind him, said

"From what I saw, Tony did everything in his power to turn down away from Kevin to avoid him,"

And: "People say that they heard the engine rev up and he gassed it. In a sprint car, the only way to steer is you steer with the rear wheels as much as you do the steering wheel. In my opinion, what he did was he gassed it to turn down away from him," said Sparks.

EXCLUSIVE: Crash Witness Says Tony Stewart Could Not Have Avoided Hitting Other Driver - Time Warner Cable News

But hey, what would he know, he actually drives sprint cars, and was actually there watching it happen in front of him......



What the hell is his dad going to say? "I raised a moron who ran into traffic and got himself killed"? No, he is going to screech at the top of his lungs, HE IS A VICTIM DAMMIT! AND the guy who hit him is an ass hole sometimes, so HE MUST BE A MURDERER!!!!!!

Nothing more you or I can say. I remember watching some news bobble heads talk about a 24hr race I was in a few years ago, their idea of why the driver's might get tired is "they didn't have much room to stretch their toes, guess it gets cramped in there". Give her 16 minutes in a special two person kart with a passenger seat getting flung around and she might have a better clue. Not sure she'd even make it that long.

You can't explain what its like to drive a racing car to those who haven't experienced it. Its like trying to describe sex to a man that was born deformed without a penis.

Even people that driven around a paved track in a comfy street based sports/raced car, won't really get whats its like to have a locked rear axle, three wheel brakes, high downforce, ultra stiff suspension, and bumpy race track. I see lots of guys that just don't get downforce and its effects because anything they raced had minimal downforce, or lift.

It annoys the CRAPOLA out of me whenever Sprint car racing makes the news, as people just don't get it.


What Kyle says about sprint cars, is also true of NASCAR, just the negative makes the news. News people love negative stuff, they love dancing on graves all the way to the bank.
http://www.foxsports.com/nascar/story/friday-notebook-kyle-larson-says-sprint-car-racing-has-gotten-a-bad-rap-081514

Btw, watch these two cars wreck after the yellow is thrown - also watch how the cars come into the frame sliding sideways - not from gassing it to throw the rear out - but from hitting the brakes.(Also note on race restarts as the cars in the back in the turn gas it - the rear doesn't come out, but the car goes to the bottom of the track.)
http://youtu.be/xJphoizVWmk?t=17m28s

[URY914]

People reading and posting in this thread by now have pretty much made up their minds. Give it a rest....

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by URY914

People reading and posting in this thread by now have pretty much made up their minds. Give it a rest....

I look for people who can learn, I have to admit, when I first posted in this thread - I didn't think Tony could of seen Ward at all. Now - providing Tony wasn't looking at his gauges, I'm pretty certain Tony did see Ward.

I've come around on that point. I may have been wrong in my first few posts.

Sooo, my viewpoint got changed through the course of this thread.

Nothing wrong with putting a few facts out about Sprint cars. I know there are two users in this thread that nothing I could say would change their minds, but there are still those who wouldn't mind a little info on the cars and racing. Its very exciting - and stuff like this(jumping out of a car onto another on a hot track) doesn't happen as often as some make it out. There's a lot of great racing.

[LakeCleElum]

Being discussed on Speed Sport Magazine right now....

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

I look for people who can learn, I have to admit, when I first posted in this thread - I didn't think Tony could of seen Ward at all. Now - providing Tony wasn't looking at his gauges, I'm pretty certain Tony did see Ward.

I've come around on that point. I may have been wrong in my first few posts.

Sooo, my viewpoint got changed through the course of this thread.

Well put. You show a level of maturity that is incredibly rare on Internet discussion forums. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by BE911SC

Well put. You show a level of maturity that is incredibly rare on Internet discussion forums. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

This is the reason for my about face on Tony seeing Ward.

I have volunteered as a track worker at short tracks. When I actually watched the video after having made several posts in ignorance, it became clear that Tony Stewart made a gross violation of regular yellow flag procedure. This violation, was that he immediately came to a stop after hitting Ward. If you stop while under yellow, you are sent to the back of the field, behind lapped cars, behind EVERYONE. For Tony - to take this penalty, means he considered something superseded his own race position, or even the race itself. The only reason he would come to a stop, is if Tony knew that Ward, and his car had met each other. He knew the situation no longer called for a yellow, but for a red, and pre-empted that red by stopping.

This is normal yellow flag procedure/events for a short track:

1. The leader, is supposed to slow to pace speed. The rest of the field is supposed to drive above pace speed, and create a tight formation on the leader. The leader is responsible for choosing the path and speeds the rest of the car's follow at. Once the cars are formed up, this allows a predictable pack for the track workers to do whatever they need to do. (think of the arcade game with the snake head, the rest of the snake follows that path.)

2. *Most* short tracks do not count laps under yellow, even if say, a national championship is there, the local track's rule supersedes the championship's rules. Only at larger speedways might one encounter laps that count under yellow. This takes the pressure off of volunteers like me, to try and get a car that is stuck or stalled back racing again. This means track workers wait for the car's to bunch up before moving onto the track. When a yellow is first thrown, the driver's responsibility if not the leader is to bunch back up as soon as possible at moderately reduced pace onto the leader.

3. Track workers are mounted, either in pick up trucks, or atv's. They do not cross the track on foot under yellow, but rather in a situation that would need more workers than the ATV(s) or truck(s), there would be a red flag.

4.1 Track workers are on headset, and do not move into a track under yellow until cleared over radio. This "ok to move" is not given until the cars are bunched up. Driver's do not expect to look for responders on the track until they are bunched up and things are all clear. A situation that would promt an instant response from workers without being cleared, would call for an immediate red flag and directive for everyone to stop their cars.(Fire, or obvious medical need.)

4.2 An ATV is usually used to push around a stalled car to bump start it.(most short tracks cars do not have starters). The car, rejoins the field, or if it has dammage, goes to the designated work area(s). Should a vehicle have flipped on its side or upside down, a yellow would not be thrown in this case, but rather, a red flag.

5. The field gets set for a restart, the car's are supposed to be single file, and any car that is not in the place in that line it should be, is re-arranged This can take 2-3 laps.

6. A cone is set on the backstretch, the single file line approaches, and chooses the outside or inside lane. Since track's have an advantage for a particular side, the leader chooses his, second place can line up the behind the leader(and usually does), 3rd, can jump to the front row, or be 3rd in line on the preferred lane. Generally, at 4th or 5th, some one takes the off lane by then, risking a front row off lane spot over behind a line of cars.

7. The field is brought around one more time, with the car's lining up for a restart, then it goes green.

Because of the time it takes to line the cars up, choose lanes, form up double file, and take the green, a car with a flat tire can fix that tire, and rejoin the track prior to it going green. He stays on his lap he was on.

Ward's car was perfectly driveable, it had a flat tire, and could be pushed/driven to the work area to get it changed. Unless this track counted laps under yellow, he'd rejoin on the lead lap he was on for the race start. There was no reason to exit his car, and no expectation that he would give up a lead lap position to do so.

Should any driver do anything that would be deemed to hold up the race restarting, they can be penalized, with either a DQ, perhaps put a lap down, or waved to the back of the field. Ward exiting a drive-able stalled race car, is holding up that process, so he would receive a penalty for that, knocking him out of contention. A drive-able car with no driver, now requires a tow truck, not just a bump start - which lengthens the period before the track can be cleared and the race restarted. Since a tow truck requires track workers on foot to hook the tow vehicle up to the car - this can create a red flag situation if the driver refused to get back in their vehicle and the vehicle is in a place a tow truck approach would block too much of the track or put workers in a place more hazardous than would be comfortable.

So generally, there are NOT people walking on the track under yellow, and absolutely not workers on the track under yellow when it is first thrown. Track workers approach after being released , often in a lit vehicle, park their vehicle, then the track worker may step off to talk to the driver, checking they are ok, and seeing if they want the nearest track exit, or to head to the work area(they may not be the same). When a track worker does this, their mount is between them and other cars.

[TCracingCA]

Originally Posted by Tervuren

This is the reason for my about face on Tony seeing Ward.

I have volunteered as a track worker at short tracks. When I actually watched the video after having made several posts in ignorance, it became clear that Tony Stewart made a gross violation of regular yellow flag procedure. This violation, was that he immediately came to a stop after hitting Ward. If you stop while under yellow, you are sent to the back of the field, behind lapped cars, behind EVERYONE. For Tony - to take this penalty, means he considered something superseded his own race position, or even the race itself. The only reason he would come to a stop, is if Tony knew that Ward, and his car had met each other. He knew the situation no longer called for a yellow, but for a red, and pre-empted that red by stopping.

This is normal yellow flag procedure/events for a short track:

1. The leader, is supposed to slow to pace speed. The rest of the field is supposed to drive above pace speed, and create a tight formation on the leader. The leader is responsible for choosing the path and speeds the rest of the car's follow at. Once the cars are formed up, this allows a predictable pack for the track workers to do whatever they need to do. (think of the arcade game with the snake head, the rest of the snake follows that path.)

2. *Most* short tracks do not count laps under yellow, even if say, a national championship is there, the local track's rule supersedes the championship's rules. Only at larger speedways might one encounter laps that count under yellow. This takes the pressure off of volunteers like me, to try and get a car that is stuck or stalled back racing again. This means track workers wait for the car's to bunch up before moving onto the track.

3. Track workers are mounted, either in pick up trucks, or atv's. They do not cross the track on foot under yellow, but rather in a situation that would need more workers than the ATV(s) or truck(s), there would be a red flag.

4. An ATV is usually used to push around a stalled car to bump start it.(most short tracks car's do not have starters). The car, rejoins the field, or if it has dammage, goes to the designated work area(s). Should a vehicle have flipped on its side or upside down, a yellow would not be thrown in this case, but rather, a red flag.

5. The field gets set for a restart, the car's are supposed to be single file, and any car that is not in the place in that line it should be, is re-arranged.

6. A cone is set on the backstretch, the single file line approaches, and chooses the outside or inside lane. Since track's have an advantage for a particular side, the leader chooses his, second place can line up the behind the leader(and usually does), 3rd, can jump to the front row, or be 3rd in line on the preferred lane. Generally, at 4th or 5th, some one takes the off lane by then, risking a front row off lane spot over behind a line of cars.

7. The field is brought around one more time, with the car's lining up for a restart, then it goes green.

Because of the time it takes to line the cars up, choose lanes, form up double file, and take the green, a car with a flat tire can fix that tire, and rejoin the track prior to it going green. He stays on his lap he was on.

Ward's car was perfectly driveable, it had a flat tire, and could be pushed/driven to the work area to get it changed. Unless this track counted laps under yellow, he'd rejoin on the lead lap he was on for the race start. There was no reason to exit his car, and no expectation that he would give up a lead lap position to do so.

Should any driver do anything that would be deemed to hold up the race restarting, they can be penalized, with either a DQ, or perhaps just a lap down. Ward exiting a derivable race car, is holding up that process, so he would receive a penalty for that, knocking him out of contention. A drive-able car with no driver, now requires a tow truck, not just a bump start - which lengthens the period before the track can be cleared and the race restarted.

I guess if you accidently ran someone over, you would keep on driving as your own warped perception of your own interpretation of how you view the rules!

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by TCracingCA

I guess if you accidently ran someone over, you would keep on driving as your own warped perception of your own interpretation of how you view the rules!

That wasn't his point at all.

[VaSteve]

I'm lost....was your position that he NEVER saw him or he knew he hit him AFTER he had done so?

I had always assumed that TS stopped against the wall because he knew he had hit him. Whether he saw him before or AT the same time as hitting him, I don't think the video help sort that out. The long TS is away, the more it seems to ME that he feels extra guilty about the whole thing. Contributing to it? Almost in hiding. Whether that's true or not, we'll have to see.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

..... The long TS is away, the more it seems to ME that he feels extra guilty about the whole thing. Contributing to it? Almost in hiding. Whether that's true or not, we'll have to see.

I think his PR and management may have convinced him that since he's not having the best season to begin there is no downside to laying low and letting some of the noise die down.

Every race he runs would otherwise be a spectacle.

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

I think his PR and management may have convinced him that since he's not having the best season to begin there is no downside to laying low and letting some of the noise die down.

Every race he runs would otherwise be a spectacle.

True. He canceled an appearance at Bass Pro Shops as well.

[Ferraripete]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

I think his PR and management may have convinced him that since he's not having the best season to begin there is no downside to laying low and letting some of the noise die down.

Every race he runs would otherwise be a spectacle.

I think his legal team has advised him to hunker down. I suspect the silence is a bit deafening. He will walk criminally but will be "encouraged" by nascar to make peace with the ward family in a big way. This does not go to trial unless some hot shot attorney convinces the family it is the best course.

Bottom line for me is T'S made a mistake, tragedy occurred, a big check will be written, threat of litigation goes away, T'S is racing again, team remains in tact, sponsors stay, nascar survives this too by not losing potentially...The second biggest team in nascar.

In the meantime lot at stake.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

I'm lost....was your position that he NEVER saw him or he knew he hit him AFTER he had done so?

I had always assumed that TS stopped against the wall because he knew he had hit him. Whether he saw him before or AT the same time as hitting him, I don't think the video help sort that out. The long TS is away, the more it seems to ME that he feels extra guilty about the whole thing. Contributing to it? Almost in hiding. Whether that's true or not, we'll have to see.

The first thing to do under yellow is to catch up to the car in front of you(if you aren't the leader). This means you are looking at the car in front of you. Ward ran down the track to get in front of Tony, but had to pause as the #45 in front of Tony passed by, Tony would be looking at the #45, and as Ward is inches from the #45, Tony would also see the outline of Ward. Tony enters the frame with a nose down and sliding - he was on the brakes hard, there was no reason to be on the brakes hard unless he saw Ward. (Only the rear axle, and left front wheel have brakes btw, you slide sideways under hard braking.)

Tony's view of Ward would be similar to this starting at 1m 58s. He would see Ward next to the vehicle in front of him, he would see Ward running, hit the brakes, but it is difficult to make out in time some one on foot is stupid enough to look right at you, and still run into your path like this.
Russian dash cam insurance scam, Incredible compilation - YouTube

Ward was hit in the upper body by Tony's wingplate, and not run over. The sprung mass on the right side of Tony's car dips both front and rear axles, getting run over by the tire, would lift the car. The final frames of Ward show his helmet move several feet in Tony's direction if you reference off the back wall, his arms go from a running position, to both arms outstretched. He either tripped, sending him into Tony's car, or was trying to leap onto Tony's car and misjudged the outcome. Some one who trips puts their hands up at an angle from their arms so as to impact with their palms. Ward's fingers look inline with the arm and outstretched, so I'm inclined to believe intent of jumping and grabbing onto Tony.

[M.D. Holloway]

Turvuren, did this guy have a history of stupidity? Ward that is? Your posts are crystal and if I was a defense attorney I would use them...

[VaSteve]

Thanks for clarifying.

Originally Posted by Tervuren

Ward was hit in the upper body by Tony's wingplate, and not run over. The sprung mass on the right side of Tony's car dips both front and rear axles, getting run over by the tire, would lift the car. The final frames of Ward show his helmet move several feet in Tony's direction if you reference off the back wall, his arms go from a running position, to both arms outstretched. He either tripped, sending him into Tony's car, or was trying to leap onto Tony's car and misjudged the outcome. Some one who trips puts their hands up at an angle from their arms so as to impact with their palms. Ward's fingers look inline with the arm and outstretched, so I'm inclined to believe intent of jumping and grabbing onto Tony.

Where you do you get this information. I have seen rumor that he was trying to jump on the car....is there new information out there?

[URY914]

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by ZOA NOM

FACT: Tony Stewart was at the wheel of the car that struck and killed another person.

FACT: The conditions at the time of impact did not preclude him from avoiding the impact.

One of them is a fact anyway.

I think TS saw him at the last moment, stood on the brakes, the front brake is on the L wheel, this pitched him sideways, kid either tripped or jumped. Some of you guys need to go see some dirt track racing, midgets, sprint cars, dwarf cars, just to see how they do it. Oh and I want to see you guys talking about the skill level to try going 100 mph on a dirt oval and manage to not crash or soil yourself

[ZOA NOM]

Originally Posted by Tobra

One of them is a fact anyway.

I think TS saw him at the last moment, stood on the brakes, the front brake is on the L wheel, this pitched him sideways, kid either tripped or jumped. Some of you guys need to go see some dirt track racing, midgets, sprint cars, dwarf cars, just to see how they do it. Oh and I want to see you guys talking about the skill level to try going 100 mph on a dirt oval and manage to not crash or soil yourself

He was under 40mph until he hit the throttle and slid into him. Both statements above are facts.