Air conditioning situation - at my home - questions.....

[Baz]

I have a 2.5 ton 13 seer R20 central air system (no heat pump) with natural gas furnace.

This is the current situation as I know it (feel free to correct me with my terminology - I'm no expert);

My 10 year old Nordyne compressor just ohmmed out as grounded - which means the windings/armature is shorting somewhere inside.

The system had been working just fine until several days ago and then no more cold air, although outside and inside fan was still turning OK.

I was hoping it was just the outside run capacitor (40/5) so I changed it out and it didn't help. The old one wasn't leaking nor was it bulging but I wanted to start off with the easiest fix first.

Anyhoo.....assuming the compressor is shot, looks like it's time to consider replacing with a new R410A system - new outside condenser unit plus matching inside handler.

My first question to those here in the know is...does this make sense so far?

Second question is why couldn't I order one direct from an online seller and either install myself except for the freon part or just hire a local HVAC company to install it. I would contact them ahead of time before ordering to discuss details and get their take.

I got a quote from a reputable local company to replace with a Daikins for approx. $3,400.00.

They also said my old R20 freon was probably compromised and although I could just replace the outside condenser unit alone since the freon would also need to be changed it would add another $500.00 just for the freon and I would still have R20 - the better alternative being pony up a little more and swap both units now and I'll have R410A freon.

I have a couple window units in place right now so I'm not in a bind to get it done right away but would like to make some decisions soon and get it scheduled.

Thanks for any input.

[red-beard]

https://www.theacoutlet.com/

I have a buddy who is a super at an apartment complex. Find a guy like that and buy a new R-22 condenser from the above website. They are in Florida!

While the newer 2 stage R410A units CAN be more efficient, they also have a lot of trouble as the air temperature goes up. If you change to R410A, I would go up 1/2 ton to 3 tons and change the evaporator along with upsizing the Freon lines.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by red-beard

https://www.theacoutlet.com/

I have a buddy who is a super at an apartment complex. Find a guy like that and buy a new R-22 condenser from the above website. They are in Florida!

While the newer 2 stage R410A units CAN be more efficient, they also have a lot of trouble as the air temperature goes up. If you change to R410A, I would go up 1/2 ton to 3 tons and change the evaporator along with upsizing the Freon lines.

Thanks James but since I'd have to change out all the old R22 - it would add another $500.00 to the repair. By the time I add the new condenser and add installation labor - it would be fairly costly - and at that point for a bit more I could go to a whole new system with the new freon.

I didn't know there were issues with it.

I did hear that R22 was going to be going up in cost as R410A goes down in cost.

[red-beard]

R-22, 2.5 ton condensers

https://www.theacoutlet.com/GSC130301-2.5-Ton-13-Seer-Goodman-Air-Conditioner-R-22.htm

https://www.theacoutlet.com/2A7B3030A-2.5-Ton-13-Seer-A.S.-R-22-Air-Conditioner.htm

https://www.theacoutlet.com/13AJA30A01-2.5-Ton-13-Seer-Rheem-Ruud-Air-Conditioner-R-22.htm

I like the Rheem units, which is what I installed at my house.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

R-22 is definitely going up in cost - quickly.

It was $450 to fill our unit with new R-22 after the compressor crapped out. That's $45/lb.

What is a Fair Price for R-22? | Angies List

[grendiers]

The transition to R410 is going to take some time. Just like finding R12 for some vintage relic you're restoring, finding R22 and related parts is there as well. Might take a few phone calls (these guys are not going to advertise R12 for example), you'll find your compressor.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by grendiers

The transition to R410 is going to take some time. Just like finding R12 for some vintage relic you're restoring, finding R22 and related parts is there as well. Might take a few phone calls (these guys are not going to advertise R12 for example), you'll find your compressor.

Maybe you're onto something.

Used ones rated for R22 are available with life in them. I see them on Craig's list and I know some of the HVAC shops have a few on hand that were salvaged.

Even if I have to replace all the R22 thus adding another $500.00 just for freon, depending on what's available, that could be the way to go rather than changing out the whole system.

[Baz]

Here's a brand new warrantied R22 2.5 unit by Goodman for $895.00 including shipping.

Goodman 2.5 ton air condition GSC130301 Dry charged condensor only. R22 Freon

[Hugh R]

No A/C expert here, but with buying "parts" which may or may not be optimal, filling, evacuating, filling again, presumably with contractors since I don't perceive that you have the pumps or licenses, don't you just want to be done with it for $3,400? I effed around with my 911 A/C for years and it never worked right converting it to R134A.

[billybek]

Couple of questions.
Was the system leaking before the compressor failed?
Every need to do any leak repairs on the system?
No? Was the system able to keep up with the load?
Recover the gas. Change the compressor/drier and contactor.
Filter the gas to remove acids and contaminants.
Evacuate system and install charge. Walk away.
R-22 is really not all that bad of a refrigerant environmentally. Reclaimed (remanufactured back to new specs) refrigerant will be available for a long long time.
I am not really a big fan of R410 and the high operating pressures that come along with it.
You can still get a new R-22 condensing unit but it will come without refrigerant. Loophole for the manufacturers to keep building R-22 condensing units.

[Baz]

Hey Bill - Thanks I was hoping you would reply. Appreciate all the advice you give here.

I did have a leak a few years ago and it was repaired. I didn't think about checking for a leak again - when the tech tested the compressor for a short and it ohmed out, he said the compressor was shot and that was it.

So should I have that checked now before doing anything else?

Or have it checked before installing the new condenser unit?

Also - I didn't know you could filter freon. Interesting. I also have noticed plenty of Craigs List ads for factory sealed 30 lb. jugs of R22 for $225-$350.00 with EPA doc. required. That's a lot better than the $60.00/lb. I was quoted.

Seems like you can buy a whole condenser unit complete (without gas) for just about the same $ as just the compressor. Wouldn't that be the way to go?

Thanks!

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Baz

Seems like you can buy a whole condenser unit complete (without gas) for just about the same $ as just the compressor. Wouldn't that be the way to go?

Thanks!

Just about everyone uses Copeland Scrolls anyway. You are definitely better off replacing the entire condenser.

You can get a Goodman or a Rheem for around $1K. Consumer Reports likes Rheem better than Goodman.

I would also suggest, at the time of installation, to put in the starting capacitor (aka hard start capacitor). I prefer the 5-2-1 type. Kick start is also OK.

Do not get the Supco PTC units. Not worth anything.

[billybek]

If the condensing units are as cheap as the repair I would go that route.

Refrigerant can be filtered and purified but if you can get a 30 pounder of the good stuff for a couple of hundie I would do that.

A low refrigerant charge (leaking system) will make that compressor run extremely hot. The windings are refrigerant cooled. The life of the compressor is dramatically shortened by running this way.

It has been a long time since I worked with split systems other than my own, but my Trane 12 SEER condensing unit is capacitor start, capacitor run. The factory in this case has a hard start kit standard.

Most programmable T'stats have a short cycling feature built in to avoid starting against high discharge pressure. This is where the hard start kit comes in and gives the compressor a boot in the butt to get it running while discharge pressures are still high... When the pressures equalize after a period of time, the compressor starts much easier...

[Baz]

2.5 ton Copeland Scroll compressor on eBay:

Copeland Scroll Compressor 2 5 Ton R 22 208 230V | eBay

$325.00

Buy it?

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by billybek

Refrigerant can be filtered and purified

This makes the so-called R-22 "shortage" and its attendant pricing even tougher to swallow.

[billybek]

Weird time delay double post!

[Baz]

This seller is in Orlando - that's a one day shipment from me.

Goodman 2 5 Ton Air Condition GSC130301 Dry Charged Condensor Only R22 Freon | eBay

It's a complete condenser unit, in my size, new, with warranty, for only $895.00.

Plug and play.

I think this is the way to go.

Get one of those 30 lb. jugs of R22 and hire a local guy to hook it all up for me and I'm set.

Yes?

[billybek]

Originally Posted by Baz

This seller is in Orlando - that's a one day shipment from me.

Goodman 2 5 Ton Air Condition GSC130301 Dry Charged Condensor Only R22 Freon | eBay

It's a complete condenser unit, in my size, new, with warranty, for only $895.00.

Plug and play.

I think this is the way to go.

Get one of those 30 lb. jugs of R22 and hire a local guy to hook it all up for me and I'm set.

Yes?

That is a good price. Maybe check some more local places to you before jumping on this.


Sent you a PM before reading this.

[95avblm3]

Originally Posted by Baz

This seller is in Orlando - that's a one day shipment from me.

Goodman 2 5 Ton Air Condition GSC130301 Dry Charged Condensor Only R22 Freon | eBay

It's a complete condenser unit, in my size, new, with warranty, for only $895.00.

Plug and play.

I think this is the way to go.

Get one of those 30 lb. jugs of R22 and hire a local guy to hook it all up for me and I'm set.

Yes?

Baz,

We just went through this as our new house had never had central AC. I just glanced over the other posts, so I apologize if I state the obvious or repeat the above but...

I looked at hiring a friend who is a firefighter by day and an AC tech by the other days when he's not at the station. We looked really close on where to mount the condenser but both got cold feet due to the difficulty in meeting the terms of the permit requirements and/or the threat of getting busted for not pulling a permit.

My understanding in Florida (although it may be county by county) is that now that 410A is around, you can't replace one piece of the system without replacing the other. Which, as we all know, is bogus and just a way to fund raise. Having said that, hopefully your condenser is well hidden and you're on good terms with your neighbor. Can you, as an individual outside of the trade, buy the refrigerant? You're dancing a fine line of finding a technician with enough skill and understanding to do the job right who also hasn't gotten burned by permitting in the past.

Just make sure you put a new dryer in the line when you do the condenser... and make sure your existing electrical is sufficient. Goodman is kind of the bottom of the barrel so to speak of AC equipment manufacturers, but if the price is right, who cares.

I'd recommend my guy but he is on the wrong side of the state. Hopefully you know someone who can and will do it. Good luck! Summer in FL sux without AC, ask me how I know

[Baz]

Yo Gorilla...thanks for the post. My situation is fairly straight forward. I was just unsure if I should make the switch to R410A or not and thanks to input from James, Bill, Blue Sky, and Grendiers....it was pretty clear the best approach for me right now is just to replace the condenser unit, which comes complete including drier, etc. All I will have to do is hire someone to do the freon lines and freon for me.

As far as I know you can still change out R22 components as needed. Now if I changed the whole system out - I would need a permit.

Being in Florida I learned a while back it doesn't hurt to have a window unit somewhere in case your central AC goes down. I even went out and bought a second one this week so I'm OK for now and not suffering while the system is down.

I'll provide an update when things are resolved. Good luck with your situation too!