More kitchen knife talk/questions

[masraum]

I'm looking to upgrade. I want something nice, but I don't want to pay $300 per knife. I'm looking for a quality knife, that will hold an edge. Most of my pocket knives are just barely stainless, so they are technically considered stainless, but they will rust. Because they are a harder steel, they seem to hold an edge for a long time. I've read a half dozen threads here, but they often end up all over the place.

My wife does most of the cooking, so I'm mostly going to duplicate the types of knives she uses most. I'm thinking 8" or 9" Chef's knife (or maybe a gyuto), 3" paring knife and some sort of bread knife. I'd also like to try a 6" or 7" Santoku knife for myself. I'd like to get out for $350-450.

1. Based on a bunch of reading, it seems like Victorinox, MAC, and Shun come up a lot. I've also heard good stuff about Masamoto knives. These brands don't seem too expensive but there is a pretty big range in price too. Anything else that I should look at or consider?

2. I'm familiar with the way Japanese blades are shaped so that one side is flat an the other side is sharpened. Are all Santoku knives like that, or are there some that are sharpened on both sides more like a regular chef's knife?

3. What are high carbon knives like to live with and use? How quickly do you have to clean them after use, 2 mins, 5mins, 10mins, 30mins? I'd just hate her to cut something, then prep a meal and get it in the oven and then 20 or 30 mins later go to clean up and find that the knives are already rusty. I don't think she'll go for that.

One more question. We'd like to go with a magnetic knife holder. I thought I saw a picture of one in one of the threads on the board on the side of a refrigerator. I'm wondering if it was screwed into the fridge or just stuck to the side with magnets. I'd think that it would be possible to put stronger magnets on the fridge side than the blade side so that it would stay up, but everything that I've seen seems to screw in which really seems best. But since we just moved to an apt, I'd prefer to not have to screw into the wall if I didn't have to. Is anything that's magnetic on both sides available?

[jyl]

I'm looking to upgrade. I want something nice, but I don't want to pay $300 per knife. I'm looking for a quality knife, that will hold an edge. Most of my pocket knives are just barely stainless, so they are technically considered stainless, but they will rust. Because they are a harder steel, they seem to hold an edge for a long time. I've read a half dozen threads here, but they often end up all over the place.



My wife does most of the cooking, so I'm mostly going to duplicate the types of knives she uses most. I'm thinking 8" or 9" Chef's knife (or maybe a gyuto), 3" paring knife and some sort of bread knife. I'd also like to try a 6" or 7" Santoku knife for myself. I'd like to get out for $350-450.



1. Based on a bunch of reading, it seems like Victorinox, MAC, and Shun come up a lot. They don't seem too expensive. Anything else that I should look at or consider?



2. I'm familiar with the way Japanese blades are shaped so that one side is flat an the other side is sharpened. Are all Santoku knives like that, or are there some that are sharpened on both sides more like a regular chef's knife?



3. What are high carbon knives like to live with and use? How quickly do you have to clean them after use, 2 mins, 5mins, 10mins, 30mins? I'd just hate her to cut something, then prep a meal and get it in the oven and then 20 or 30 mins later go to clean up and find that the knives are already rusty. I don't think she'll go for that.



One more question. We'd like to go with a magnetic knife holder. I thought I saw a picture of one in one of the threads on the board on the side of a refrigerator. I'm wondering if it was screwed into the fridge or just stuck to the side with magnets. I'd think that it would be possible to put stronger magnets on the fridge side than the blade side so that it would stay up, but everything that I've seen seems to screw in which really seems best. But since we just moved to an apt, I'd prefer to not have to screw into the wall if I didn't have to. Is anything that's magnetic on both sides available?

Victorinox are my favorites. The steel is a little softer than some, but it sharpens easily and holds that edge fine. The knives are light, slim, with good handles. They are not expensive. I have some that are 25 years old. As far as I know, they are actually made in Switzerland (or Germany), although I've seen the occasional one marked Spain. At that price point, everything else is made in China. Well, maybe except Dexter-Russell, the US commercial food service brand.

But I wouldn't stick with the same make for all the knives. No need to. For example, when you want a heavy, tough, big chefs knife - you're going to split a hard squash or crunch through a chicken - you do not want a slim, light Victorinox. You want a Mac or Wusthof or similar. If you are trying to thinly slice a veggie, you want a thin blade like a Victorinox or shun or a Chinese cleaver. Etc.

Santoku is not really a traditional refined Japanese knife shape, it is sort of the jack of all trades knife that a Japanese housewife might have, as opposed to a Japanese pro chef who has multiple specialized knives. The santokus you get here will all have double beveled edges.

Japanese and Japanese style knives typically have edges beveled to a more acute angle (30 deg or less) than a traditional western chef knife (45 deg). You sharpen them differently. Japanese knives may have harder steel too, if they are authentic and expensive. That isn't necessarily good; hard can mean more easily damaged and more difficult to sharpen. And some traditional Japanese knives are single bevel, but that won't be common in a US knife store's selection. You have to sharpen those on a stone.

High carbon knives will get stained looking if treated as you're describing. Not "rusty" but dark patches.

I don't like magnetic holders. When you pull one knife off, if you accidentally snag its neighbor, that knife can fall off, which can be scary. Maybe if you are careful not to overcrowd the strip.

Sharpness is most important. Pay as much attention to your sharpening system as to the knife brand. If you want easy, the electric Chefs Choice are actually quite okay, though hardly for the purist. I use stones and a smooth (not grooved!) steel.

Get big knives! I hate short chefs knives like 8"; 10" is okay. Bread knives should be long, 10" or 12". In addition to a paring knife, a boning knife is a nice thing to have. I use my santuko for vegetables mostly.

[vash]

i have three carbon knives..sometimes i brain fart and leave a blade wet..DUH!'

my reward? i rust stains on my countertops..not a huge deal. a quick hone will hide my sin. it takes a hour or so..BUT, you walk away with onion bits stuck to a blade..15 mins. and you will have discolored dots that are onion bit shaped. no biggie in my world. i call it "patina".

cutting red onions, sometimes the onion reacts and turns blackish. not the greatest if you are trying to garnish, say a bagel with lox..black onions look kinda unappetizing.

i use a stainless blade to do that kinda stuff.

that Morimoto VG10 is a great japanese starter, but toss the steel..they only like waterstones on the japanese blades. deal breaker for some.

i love the blade profile of a japanese Gyoto..like a gesshin. lean, slick..blade thickness is kinda thin, so you wont be using it to chop open any butternut squashes.. my next blade will be a japanese knife..but i am loving my vintage french Sabatier and Gustav Emil Urn knives. when i take them to the pro sharpeners, they always offer me money for them. not for sale.

i vote you find a vintage Sabatier.. mine is a Trompette line. there are others. this was before copyright laws, so there are many Sabatier makers. dont get fooled by the sucky ones.

[LWJ]

Steve,

I am a carbon knife fan. My wife? She grabs anything that looks like a knife and starts hacking with it. We have a Heinkels (sp?) set that is just terrible. For my wife, I bought a Victorinox Fibrox which is very high performance stainless for low bucks at a restaurant store. She still picks up the nasty Heinkels however. A creature of habit I guess.

What do I use? A dexter carbon utility knife 90% of the time, a chinese carbon cleaver 5% and a monster carbon chef's knife 5%. The carbon is pretty amazing. All were cheap - the chef's knife came from Ebay the others came from garage sales at under $2. I could sever an arm with the chef's' knife and a hand with the cleaver.

Why am I such a fan? The carbon takes an edge so very well. The Victroinox is not bad but I do prefer the carbon. As for the Japanese knives? Those suckers are amazing. I don't own one but would be very interested in trying one out.

Good luck.
Larry

PS - my favorite knife? My garage knife. I took an old carbon cheapo kitchen knife with a rosewood handle and reshaped it. I use that sucker for everything.

[wildthing]

Zwilling JA Henckels makes good knives, but you have to get the Professional S Series. The other ones are indeed crap.

[Googam]

I use these for all my kitchen work. Had them for over 12 years. A 10" for carving, 8" for slicing, tomato knife for veggies & paring for small stuff. The handles are flat for smoother slicing control. The knob at the base of the handle helps control your grip. They sharpen up nicely. Get a good honing steel.
Amazon.com: porsche knife

[Rickysa]

Chef Knives To Go: Kitchen Knives, Chef Knives, Japanese Knives

Has reviews, discussions, forum, etc. Very nice guy started the business in a spare room...super helpful.

[PorscheGAL]

I have a magnetic strip on the refrigerator. It is held on by magnets. You need to get the most powerful magnets you can because as you add the weight of knives, it can slide if they aren't strong enough.

Americas Test Kitchen, for the most part, like Victorinox Knives.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by PorscheGAL

I have a magnetic strip on the refrigerator. It is held on by magnets. You need to get the most powerful magnets you can because as you add the weight of knives, it can slide if they aren't strong enough.

That was my concern, that the holder would slide. Did yours come with the magnets or did you get the magnets and add them yourself?

Americas Test Kitchen, for the most part, like Victorinox Knives.

I've got their cookbook and saw that. The Victorinox seem to have lots of supporters.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by jyl

when you want a heavy, tough, big chefs knife - you're going to split a hard squash or crunch through a chicken - you do not want a slim, light Victorinox. You want a Mac or Wusthof or similar. If you are trying to thinly slice a veggie, you want a thin blade like a Victorinox or shun or a Chinese cleaver. Etc.

Sharpness is most important. Pay as much attention to your sharpening system as to the knife brand. If you want easy, the electric Chefs Choice are actually quite okay, though hardly for the purist. I use stones and a smooth (not grooved!) steel.

Get big knives! I hate short chefs knives like 8"; 10" is okay. Bread knives should be long, 10" or 12". In addition to a paring knife, a boning knife is a nice thing to have. I use my santuko for vegetables mostly.

Good to know, we do occasionally split a tough squash. I'd hate to break a knife doing that.

I already have a Chef's Choice sharpener and a lansky sharpener.

I've thought about getting bigger knives, but the missus likes the size that we have, so I think it's a good idea to stick with those since she's the primary user.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by vash

i have three carbon knives..sometimes i brain fart and leave a blade wet..DUH!'

my reward? i rust stains on my countertops..not a huge deal. a quick hone will hide my sin. it takes a hour or so..BUT, you walk away with onion bits stuck to a blade..15 mins. and you will have discolored dots that are onion bit shaped. no biggie in my world. i call it "patina".

cutting red onions, sometimes the onion reacts and turns blackish. not the greatest if you are trying to garnish, say a bagel with lox..black onions look kinda unappetizing.

i use a stainless blade to do that kinda stuff.

Good info on the high carbon stuff, so it's not going to get disgusting in 2 mins, and it just gets a patina, thanks.

i vote you find a vintage Sabatier.. mine is a Trompette line. there are others. this was before copyright laws, so there are many Sabatier makers. dont get fooled by the sucky ones.

My concern would be making sure I get a good one and not a sucky one.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by LWJ

I am a carbon knife fan.
Why am I such a fan? The carbon takes an edge so very well. The Victroinox is not bad but I do prefer the carbon. As for the Japanese knives? Those suckers are amazing. I don't own one but would be very interested in trying one out.

And that's why I'm curious about trying a hc knife. I'd like the edge to hold for a while.

Originally Posted by wildthing

Zwilling JA Henckels makes good knives, but you have to get the Professional S Series. The other ones are indeed crap.

good to know.

Originally Posted by Googam

I use these for all my kitchen work. Had them for over 12 years. A 10" for carving, 8" for slicing, tomato knife for veggies & paring for small stuff. The handles are flat for smoother slicing control. The knob at the base of the handle helps control your grip. They sharpen up nicely. Get a good honing steel.
Amazon.com: porsche knife

Well, the link didn't work for me but i did a search for Porsche knife. I'm afraid the missus would not like the handles.

Originally Posted by Rickysa

Chef Knives To Go: Kitchen Knives, Chef Knives, Japanese Knives

Has reviews, discussions, forum, etc. Very nice guy started the business in a spare room...super helpful.

I had been on that site, but had not seen the forums, thanks for the heads-up.

[ramonesfreak]

Regarding high carbon blades, my favorite folding knives are 1095 and I use them for food prep. I force a patina on the blade using boiled apple cider vinegar. I love this steel but I can imagine a wife would prefer stainless. Without the patina, they will rust before your eyes

[masraum]

Originally Posted by ramonesfreak

Regarding high carbon blades, my favorite folding knives are 1095 and I use them for food prep. I force a patina on the blade using boiled apple cider vinegar. I love this steel but I can imagine a wife would prefer stainless. Without the patina, they will rust before your eyes

Interesting, thanks.

[OffCamber00]

Adjacent to my work is a culinary school. The guy who runs the kife shop up the street says that Miyabi is the best bang for the buck and very popular amongst the pros.

I've already got a full set of good knives but they seem to be nicely balanced and well made.

[VincentVega]

The knife was just the entry point for me. Need to get a big end grain cutting board so not to ruin the new blade, then need to get a few sharpening stones to keep new blade sharp. No complaints, it's very nice stuff but all in it was more $$ than I expected.

[craigster59]

Not sure if I posted this pic before, but this is my favorite sushi chef Mitz with his new knife he just picked up on his trip to Japan. The older knife on the right was the same size originally, shrunken due to daily sharpening over the years,

[Rickysa]

quick mention of the mainstay of enjoying any knife (as all here know, I'm sure ): sharpening.

The same site I mentioned earlier has tons of supplies and great how-to videos for folks new to sharpening...really kinda fun. Also safe: sharp knives much safer than dull.

I played with various wet stones etc. but fell in love with this gizmo:

Edge Pro Apex 1


I takes a good while to get proficient at hand sharpening as it is a learned skill...the Edge Pro holds the stone at the proper angle and you draw it across the blade...very cool.

I wish I could figure out how to take a picture through the microscope I use to evaluate edge sharpness...really impressive

[cstreit]

Okay, so If I DON'T want to spend $164 on a kitchen knife sharpener, what should I get? My Henckles (Pro S) edges are pretty grim.... I don't need to shave or cut sushi with them....

[PorscheGAL]

Originally Posted by masraum

That was my concern, that the holder would slide. Did yours come with the magnets or did you get the magnets and add them yourself?

I bought the magnets at Lowes. If you have magnets from end to end it holds pretty well. I don't have any issues with the strip coming off or sliding when I pull on a knife.