Oil pipeline questions, not political:

[speeder]

Since I pay shockingly little attention to the whole Keystone Pipeline imbroglio, I know very little about oil pipelines. I know that oil moves through them, that's about it. Would the KXL be above ground or below? Combination? How deep, if buried? I would imagine that it has to be underground at least partially, it can't be barren farmland all the way from Alberta to Nebraska, though it mostly is for sure.

Do they have to go out and buy the land rights from each and every land owner for 1200 miles to install it under their land, (or on top of)? What if someone says no? Could one hold-out snafu the entire thing?

Sorry for the (probably) dumb questions, and yes, I'm aware that there are millions of miles of pipeline already installed in the U.S., so these are general questions not only for the KXL, other than that is the only big oil pipeline project at the moment.

Also, I assume that there are large shut-off valves every so many miles, (how many), in order to stop the flow if there is a leak? Is that what the small number of permanent jobs created by its construction include? Sort of night watchmen who will sleep for the next 30 years unless it bursts and they have to man the switch/valve?

Like I said, I know nothing about these things. The questions are serious, if dumb. TIA.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by speeder

What if someone says no? Could one hold-out snafu the entire thing?

I'm sure eminent domain comes into play for most of the land. But I hear one indian reservation is making a fuss and it will require a serious reroute to bypass them. I don't think eminent domain works with indian reservations.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I'm sure eminent domain comes into play for most of the land. But I hear one indian reservation is making a fuss and it will require a serious reroute to bypass them. I don't think eminent domain works with indian reservations.

Sovereign Nation.

Eminent domain is useless.

It would be analogous to Canada claiming eminent domain on our side of the border.

[varmint]

The answers to most of your questions will simply be "yes". It will be both above and below ground. The depth will vary depending on soil and ground water levels and a myriad of enviro entail laws.

It is a continuing job for thousands to keep a pipeline running. From the pump stations to cleaning pigs and security. Imbeciles like to shoot at pipelines for some reason.

It's all a huge undertaking that only makes sense when compared to transporting it by rail.

[wdfifteen]

It's hard to find objective information, as the pros and antis have competed to yell the loudest. This is a pretty good overview of some of the issues: Keystone XL Pipeline | StateImpact Texas

I have some of the same questions you do. As to eminent domain, the states it is running through apparently are letting corporations condemn and seize private land for the use of the pipeline company. In my view that is a horrifying prospect, but it isn't new.
There has been a lot politicing over this, but not a lot of objective educating of the public.

[nota]

basic supply vs demand
less domestic oil if more is exported by this pipeline

good for oil corpRATs
bad for drivers

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by varmint

It is a continuing job for thousands to keep a pipeline running.

50 jobs, not thousands.

TransCanada CEO says 42,000 Keystone XL pipeline jobs are 'ongoing, enduring' | PunditFact

[speeder]

basic supply vs demand

less domestic oil if more is exported by this pipeline



good for oil corpRATs

bad for drivers

Right. Could you read the fking title and the OP before ranting? I might have opinions about the politics of it as well but this thread is about basic info on pipelines.

I don't want to read the answers in PARF, interspersed with pages and pages about "corprats" and "*******s". Please go away.

[varmint]

Politifact? Seriously?

Half my town is employed on the pipeline. The other half fish. We have engineers, welders, chemists, hydrologists, machinists, pilots, drivers, geologists and a host of other professions. Most are contractors working for oilfield services companies. There are a dozen small time haliburtons around. They may not meet whatever criteria politifact used. But they're still employed.

[MrAlien]

our family has some land up near the red river (texas side) been in the family over 100 years, no one lives there anymore, but we have a natural gas pipeline that runs across the property, I know we get payed for the pipeline not sure how much, we have an attorney that manages the property.

[GH85Carrera]

The Keystone pipeline in Oklahoma is done and completed. It goes from Cushing, OK to the border with Kansas. Cushing, OK is the largest oil storage facility in the world.

3 Impressive Storage Tank Facilities » Castagra

[red-beard]

1. Below ground, except where control and pumping equipment come into play. Below the permafrost line, so it varies.
2. Usually they pay "rent" to a landholder. Eminent domain comes into play, but usually they try to negotiate before that happens. It gets costly in court for both side.



3. Not just shutoff valve but pump stations. And all of this infrastructure needs to be maintained. And the equipment gets sent out for repair. Lots and lots of jobs doing all of this.

[red-beard]

The oil is already coming south. At present it is being transported by rail car. This is much more expensive and much more dangerous than using a pipeline.

[red-beard]

[red-beard]

Here is the Alaskan Oil pipeline from Prudhoe Bay to Valdez. 800 miles and used up to 12 pumping stations. With the reduced oil from the area, only 5 are needed now. I expect the KXL will need more stations for the same distance since the oil is much more viscous. It will also need to be heated periodically.

RIGZONE - How Do Pumping Stations Work?

[maxnine11]

hi Denis.

Would the KXL be above ground or below?

almost 100% below ground.

How deep, if buried?

Typically, 1.2m to 1.5m of cover on top of the pipe. Double that for seasonal water courses. Major waterways would be a lot deeper, as they would be an HDD (Horizontal Directional Drill)

max

[M.D. Holloway]

I remembering reading that the temperature of the crude is elevated to increase flow. Not sure if that is true or not - would seems that the pipe would need serious insulation over thousands of miles of crude. Plus the energy required to heat it would be high - then again the energy to pump it is high.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

I remembering reading that the temperature of the crude is elevated to increase flow. Not sure if that is true or not - would seems that the pipe would need serious insulation over thousands of miles of crude. Plus the energy required to heat it would be high - then again the energy to pump it is high.

The ground is the insulation for the most part. And most of the heating comes from the pumping equipment and pipeline friction. But, since this is very heavy crude, it will require some additional heating.

Specific heat is about 1/2 that of water, 0.51 BTU/lb-deg F

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by red-beard

3. Not just shutoff valve but pump stations. And all of this infrastructure needs to be maintained. And the equipment gets sent out for repair. Lots and lots of jobs doing all of this.

The CEO of TransCanada pipeline says 50.

"On ABC’s This Week, host Martha Raddatz quizzed the leader of the company that wants to build the pipeline, TransCanada CEO Russ Girling, about the project’s job creation potential. Girling cited TransCanada’s estimates for 9,000 total positions, and Raddatz countered with estimates from the U.S. State Department, which is tasked with a recommendation on the project to President Barack Obama because it crosses international borders.

"There are others who say the jobs will not be so great, going as low as 4,000 jobs, and that the jobs will only be here for a couple of years," Raddatz said. "The State Department, you mentioned the State Department, says that once the proposed project enters service, operations will require approximately 50 total employees in the U.S."

Girling conceded that actual operating jobs top out at 50 ..."

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by nota

basic supply vs demand
less domestic oil if more is exported by this pipeline

good for oil corpRATs
bad for drivers

Where in the world do you get your information?

It is illegal for domestically produced oil to be sold overseas.
Any Canadian oil that gets shipped by this pipeline will reduce the price of oil in the gulf, further benefitting consumers.
The keystone pipeline will increase domestic supply and drive down prices to the consumer. It will pretty much eliminate the influence of foreign producers like OPEC.
it's what we've always wanted, a way to tell the middle east producers to take a hike.
Energy Independence.

It will also reduce profits for most oil companies as supply increases and oil prices drop.



There are already a whole bunch of pipelines in the us, almost ALL are underground. The only reason the trans-Alaskan pipeline was above ground was because of permafrost.



And all it takes is a grant of easement onto a property and a potential fee for temporary loss of use and a noninal rent agreement.
They dig a trench, lay the pipe, fill in the trench, and you'll never know it's there.

modern pipelines are protected with serious instrumentation that can detect and stop a leak. They have all sorts of electronics that monitor corrosion, thickness, integrity. They send "pigs" down the line periodically that inspect the pipeline as they go through, taking measurements and pictures. It's pretty high tech.
There are booster pumping stations all along the route with isolation valves.