This is what happens when you smoke too much MJ

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

use of illegal drugs is determined not by the preceding use of a particular drug

Yes it does. (That's a quote, from the article, fyi)

Obviously that is out of context. Once again, this "emerging theory" does not eliminate MJ as a gateway drug whatsoever. It only points out other things correlate strongly with drug use...which was really never in question. The fact that a person without access to MJ will use alcohol first really does not seem to be any great revelation.

Originally Posted by JD159
..While the gateway theory posits that each type of drug is associated with certain specific risk factors that cause the use of subsequent drugs, such as cigarettes or alcohol leading to marijuana, this study’s findings indicate that environmental aspects have stronger influence on which type of substance is used. That is, if it’s easier for a teen to get his hands on marijuana than beer, then he’ll be more likely to smoke pot. This evidence supports what’s known as the common liability model, an emerging theory that states the likelihood that someone will transition to the use of illegal drugs is determined not by the preceding use of a particular drug but instead by the user’s individual tendencies and environmental circumstances..

[JD159]

Originally Posted by nynor

more available? as a teen in mormon-ville utah, i could get the stuff with little trouble.....

Anecdotal. I want scientific proof from 2014 that MJ is readily available in that area to teens.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

Seems like it's pretty available already. Oh wait, that's anecdotal. Disregard.

Apparently it is not...or why would anyone bother to legalize it?

[JD159]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Apparently it is not...or why would anyone bother to legalize it?

Look. I don't want teens to become regular smokers of MJ. But take my anecdotal evidence of being in highschool in the mid 2000's. I've seen a hell of a lot worse things happen to my friend's and teens, who partake in consistent binge drinking, than I ever did when they had MJ.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Obviously that is out of context. Once again, this "emerging theory" does not eliminate MJ as a gateway drug whatsoever. It only points out other things correlate strongly with drug use...which was really never in question. The fact that a person without access to MJ will use alcohol first really does not seem to be any great revelation.

Originally Posted by JD159
..While the gateway theory posits that each type of drug is associated with certain specific risk factors that cause the use of subsequent drugs, such as cigarettes or alcohol leading to marijuana, this study’s findings indicate that environmental aspects have stronger influence on which type of substance is used. That is, if it’s easier for a teen to get his hands on marijuana than beer, then he’ll be more likely to smoke pot. This evidence supports what’s known as the common liability model, an emerging theory that states the likelihood that someone will transition to the use of illegal drugs is determined not by the preceding use of a particular drug but instead by the user’s individual tendencies and environmental circumstances..

What the article means by which type, is the drug they will have access too, not which drug will be the gateway. If cocaine is most accessible, and conducive to the user’s individual tendencies and environmental circumstances, that will be the drug of choice, and so on and so fourth.

[nynor]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Apparently it is not...or why would anyone bother to legalize it?

wow. that is some really strange logic. i can think of all kinds of reasons to bother decriminalizing MJ. none of them have to do with availability.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by nynor

wow. that is some really strange logic. i can think of all kinds of reasons to bother decriminalizing MJ. none of them have to do with availability.

Please elaborate.

[nynor]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Please elaborate.

really. wow. eliminate legal consequences for use and possession. for starters. come on, fint, this is beneath you.

[fintstone]

There are multiple scientific studies collected by the NIH that are very recent. They indicate that According to the NIH about 9 percent of users becomes addicted. 17 percent of those that start young and 25-50 percent among people that use it daily.

MJ is designated as a schedule I substance...no medical use and high risk of abuse.

Per the NIH:
Why Isn’t the Marijuana Plant an FDA-Approved Medicine?

The FDA requires carefully conducted studies in large numbers of patients (hundreds to thousands) to accurately assess the benefits and risks of a potential medication. Thus far, there have not been enough large-scale clinical trials showing that benefits of the marijuana plant (as opposed to specific cannabinoid constituents) outweigh its risks in patients with the symptoms it is meant to treat.

The known safety concerns of marijuana include impairment of short-term memory; altered judgment and decisionmaking; and mood effects, including severe anxiety (paranoia) or even psychosis (loss of touch with reality), especially following high-dose exposures. Marijuana also significantly reduces motor coordination and slows reaction time, which makes it very dangerous to use before driving a car. Additionally, although we do not yet know whether marijuana smoking contributes to lung cancer risk, it can cause or worsen other respiratory problems such as bronchitis or chronic cough.

Growing evidence is showing that marijuana may be particularly harmful for young people: It may cause long-term or even permanent impairment in cognitive ability and intelligence when used regularly during adolescence, when the brain is still developing. There is also some evidence that marijuana use during pregnancy may be associated with neurological problems in babies and impaired school performance later in childhood.

Another safety concern is that, contrary to common belief, marijuana can be addictive: About 9% of people who try marijuana will become addicted to it. The number goes up to about 1 in 6 among people who start using marijuana as teenagers, and to 25-50% among daily users.

Studies also show that when used before age 17, it increases the rate of drug use/problems later in life. In 2009, @ 4.5 million of the estimated 7.1 million Americans dependent in or abusing illicit drugs. About 18 percent of those 12 and older entering drug abuse treatment reported MJ as their primary drug of abuse and 61percent of those under 15.

A study of postal workers showed that those who tested positive on a pre employment drug test had 55% more industrial accidents, 85% more injuries and a 75% increase on absenteeism compared to those that tested negative.

Another study of long term users showed that given similar education and income backgrounds, fewer heavy users completed college and more had incomes of less than $30K.

A meta-analysis of 48 relevant studies showed showed cannabis use to be associated consistently with reduced academic attainment (grades and graduation).

Marijuana smoke contains up to 70% more irritants and carcinogens than tobacco smoke and induces high levels if an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their cancer causing form...and since MJ smokers typically hold the smoke in their long longer, some suggest a more serious risk of cancer than with cigarettes. Studies do show that heavy users are absent from work more from respiratory illness than others.

long term use of marijuana is more harmful than originally thought. The results are pretty conclusive and bear out what I have witnessed personally. Older studies just did not have enough long term data.

These studies also show that when used before age 17, it increases the rate of drug use/problems later in life. In 2009, @ 4.5 million of the estimated 7.1 million Americans dependent in or abusing illicit drugs. About 18 percent of those 12 and older entering drug abuse treatment reported MJ as their primary drug of abuse and 61percent of those under 15.

Once again...I am fine with an adult using whatever they please as long as I (society) do not have to pay for their poor choices. I exclude the use of alcohol and nicotine from the discussion for the obvious reason. Both are currently legal and are not under consideration for additional control...so they are simply a distraction to the argument. I would not argue to make them legal and would not argue to subsidize the behavior or users of those either. For example, I would not want to subsidize smokers by paying the same rate for my life insurance (as the dangers of smoking and cancer are well known). Similarly the morbidly obese, folks who race at NASCAR, etc. In fact, even if you drop out of high school and I go to college...or if I work two jobs while you sit and home swilling beer and watching TV. Subsidizing poor behavior with other people's money is not good for anyone, as it only encourages bad behavior. Consequences discourage bad behavior.

[nynor]

there is strong evidence that MJ has medical efficacy. use of MJ extracts to control seizures, for starters. increasing appetite for those that are cachexic. why don't you put that excellent mind of yours to work finding the evidence that it does have medical uses. legitimate medical uses.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by nynor

there is strong evidence that MJ has medical efficacy. use of MJ extracts to control seizures, for starters. increasing appetite for those that are cachexic. why don't you put that excellent mind of yours to work finding the evidence that it does have medical uses. legitimate medical uses.

Legitimate medical use is fine by me. It is recreational use we are discussing (although I believe that most places where it is legal for medical use...most use is actually recreational).

Thank you.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by nynor

really. wow. eliminate legal consequences for use and possession. for starters. come on, fint, this is beneath you.

What possible value is that? It would sure put a kink in trying to restrict usage of a know, dangerous drug, now wouldn't it?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Because that has nothing to do with his anti-welfare screed.

"Anti-welfare screed"? Come on. Why would anyone not be willing to give up the right to be subsidized by others if they knowingly use any dangerous illegal drug and they become unemployable...especially since most users apparently believe that just does not happen (contrary to evidence).

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

What the article means by which type, is the drug they will have access too, not which drug will be the gateway. If cocaine is most accessible, and conducive to the user’s individual tendencies and environmental circumstances, that will be the drug of choice, and so on and so fourth.

OK...how does that prove that marijuana is not a gateway drug?

[JD159]

Originally Posted by fintstone

"Anti-welfare screed"? Come on. Why would anyone not be willing to give up the right to be subsidized by others if they knowingly use any dangerous illegal drug and they become unemployable...especially since most users apparently believe that just does not happen (contrary to evidence).

Flint. Any evidence you have put fourth show the harmful health effects of not, and I repeat not, recreational MJ use, but MJ ABUSE.

Earlier you stated we are discussing recreational use, but posted evidence pertaining to long term, heavy substance abuse.

Please keep your evidence relative to your position. If discussing recreational use, post evidence of the harm peterining to recreational use, and not substance abuse.

There is indeed a difference. So whenever you deem MJ a dangerous drug, are you referring to its uses recreationally, or abusively? And if recreationally, post relevant scientic data.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

Look. I don't want teens to become regular smokers of MJ. But take my anecdotal evidence of being in highschool in the mid 2000's. I've seen a hell of a lot worse things happen to my friend's and teens, who partake in consistent binge drinking, than I ever did when they had MJ.

If you were in high school in the mid 2000's...your friends were not old enough in high school to see the full affect and are not yet old enough to see the worst problems from habitual use. If you compare my peers (which are older) who were heavy users...the damage is obvious.

How does binge drinking being worse in some cases (assuming it is), make it a good idea to legalize MJ?

[JD159]

Originally Posted by fintstone

OK...how does that prove that marijuana is not a gateway drug?

It proves MJ is not a gateway drug because the use of a more illicit drug is not caused by the preceding drug, but by the environment.

Sorry for spelling. From phone.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

Flint. Any evidence you have put fourth show the harmful health effects of not, and I repeat not, recreational MJ use, but MJ ABUSE.

Earlier you stated we are discussing recreational use, but posted evidence pertaining to long term, heavy substance abuse.

Please keep your evidence relative to your position. If discussing recreational use, post evidence of the harm peterining to recreational use, and not substance abuse.

There is indeed a difference. So whenever you deem MJ a dangerous drug, are you referring to its uses recreationally, or abusively? And if recreationally, post relevant scientic data.

No. You are wrong. You cannot differentiate between use and abuse of a substance that is legal. Both are recreational.

Are you advocating a law that would restrict how often a week a person can smoke or how much at a time? How would you enforce that? It would be like trying to enforce a limit on any legal item...say, potato chips...since too many are bad for you.

What would prevent long term, heavy use....say, in Colorado, now?

[slodave]

While joints are still smoked today, I am betting that far more people smoke pot via other tools, such as the bong - water as a filter, though by no means a perfect filter, vaporizer - pretty much vaporizes just the THC oil sacks, leaving the flower unburned, dry sift aka hash - usually 95%(ish) pure THC/CBD. Joints are so passé...

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JD159

It proves MJ is not a gateway drug because the use of a more illicit drug is not caused by the preceding drug, but by the environment.

Sorry for spelling. From phone.

No. In the study, they do not even attempt to prove that MJ is not a gateway drug

It does show evidence that a person's environment seems to be a factor in which drugs they initially use. Obviously, if you cannot obtain MJ, it will not be the first drug you use. Similarly, if you have access to alcohol, it will likely be the first drug you use (if you use any).

Once again, to make the comparison you seek, you will need a study that compares the percentage of folks that use MJ that later use harder drugs with the percentage that don't use MJ that use harder drugs. Much like the one I cited...where identical twins were studied...where one used and one didn't...then compare the results.