I hate flying

[recycled sixtie]

I thank the big guy upstairs that my daughter is engaged to an Irishman living in Canada and not a dude living in Australia. No offence to Australia or dudes there but location location location. The mere thought of flying like some total of 20(?) hours to Australia would deter me from going there very often. Destination wedding? Forget that LOL.

My first flight in an aircraft in the 1950's going from Lydd, Kent UK to Le Touqet France for a total of about 20 minutes was exciting. The aircraft was a Bristol Freighter. Cars are loaded on the bottom and we sat in a cabin above the cars. The engine noise on takeoff will live with me forever.

Guy.

[Neilk]

Just saw this video today and thought I would share it.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10150968348807561

Couldn't embed, so click on the link

[recycled sixtie]

Originally Posted by Neilk

Just saw this video today and thought I would share it.

Post by Scott Hornbeck.

Thanks Neil. Love it.
Guy

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by island911

Seriously, many trains, of the ROW, have toilets that are nothing but holes to the tracks. But Amtrak is a disgrace to the civilized world.

.

Standard Amtrak travel is pretty vile. Nothing worse than traveling with some of the dregs of society. The last time I took Amtrak a couple years ago, I took the Auto Train. It was actually one of the nicest travel events that I ever had. The train was empty. Had a sleeper compartment. Nice and relaxing. The car itself only had like 6 other people in it.

.

[group911@aol.co]

In reality, flights today cost less in actual dollars than they did 30 years ago. Did the customers demand it? Probably, the vast majority did, so this is what we have. As far as the staff, look at the wages especially of the regional carriers and you'll realize that they make so little that they actually qualify for food stamps in many states. Throw in the fact that that their clock doesn't start until the door closes and stops when it opens, and you may start to understand their position. Does it beat stocking shelves at Walmart? Sure, but not by much. Next throw in the workmans comp policies on otj injuries and it gives them even less incentive to hump our oversized bags into spaces designed for reasonable carry on items that nobody actually has.
If you could have driven to your destination in 4 hours or less it probably doesn't make sense to fly from a time standpoint but is it safer. Absolutely not. Gotta weigh out how much you are worth I guess.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

BS.
"We" didn't say, "We want to be treated like cattle as long as it's cheap." On the airlines that offer Economy Plus ( a little more space for a few more dollars) the seats are always sold out. (Let's not talk about my "economy plus" seat that was in front of the frikking door. It didn't have extra leg room because they provided it for me, it was the same seat in front of the door that they sold as coach untll they realized they could pass it off as "special" and charge more). I always travel "business class" when I can get it, but the seats are limited and on some regional flights there is no such thing. Airline employees exhibit such a level of obvious disinterest in their jobs that I worry that the jobs that aren't so obvious - those that involve safety - are being ignored to an equal extent. It is very concerning to me. U.S. airlines have lowered their standards to the point that I'm expecting a disaster any day. I just hope I'm not a part of it.

[group911@aol.co]

Dang Don. Did you have to tell everybody about Global Entry? Soon, our line is going to as long as theirs.
I agree, there is nothing like the feeling of dozing off as the plane takes off. Didn't mind a bit when recently, the crew woke me to watch the rocket exploding on the east coast- from 34000 feet.

Originally Posted by Don Plumley

I don't fly now as much as I used to (lifetime AA Plat), but mostly I agree with Chocaholic. The end result of being in another part of the US or the world, for whatever reason, is worth whatever bits of inconvenience you might feel for a few hours. And pretty entertained looking at all the humanity - then I put on the noise canceling headphones and check out for a few hours of solitude above the clouds. There's nothing, nothing, like looking at the world from 35,000 feet on a clear day. And there's nothing better than going asleep and waking up in Tokyo, or Paris, or anywhere. I'm not talking about flying First Class/B Class either (though that helps), I almost only fly coach overseas now. I just love travel and still get all giddy when I drive up to an airport and see airplanes.

For those of you that hate the security BS, I have two words for you: Global Entry. Best $100 you could spend. You get TSA Pre Check and bypass the BS. Coming through Passport/Customs overseas is super fast and easy.

My two yen.

[Nate2046]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

What do we demand that is unreasonable?

Don't make sit on the Tarmac waiting to take off for more than half an hour

Make the seats wide enough that the 300 pound guy sitting next to me fits and doesn't slop over onto my seat.

Give me enough room in front of my seat that my knees don't press against the seat in front of me.

Provide cabin crew that help passengers.

Maintain posted schedules.

I just deleted everything I wrote in response to this because, what's the point? I get it that you want to vent and you're not going to listen to anything I say anyway. But you have to understand from our perspective as flight crews its hard to listen to that everyday, day after day.

I really like flying these passengers now. They may smell marginally worse but their disposition is generally better.

[450knotOffice]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

What do we demand that is unreasonable?

Don't make sit on the Tarmac waiting to take off for more than half an hour

Ok, so here's the deal. Waiting on the ramp or taxiway for takeoff clearance is not the choice of the airline. It's always due to congestion on the ground, congestion in the air, or severe weather somewhere along the route of flight or at the destination that causes Air Traffic Control to slow down or stop the flow of traffic. It might be clear, warm, and beautiful at LAX, but the weather in Chicago or Dallas or Atlanta might be complete hell. ATC then restricts or even temporarily stops the flow of traffic into the airport with bad weather. If your jet is on the ground, it's called a Ground Stop by ATC. The analogy is a car stuck in Urban traffic at 5PM on a Friday, with a bad accident a couple of miles up ahead of you. You might WISH you could drive straight through it, but it just isn't gonna happen. Trust me, jets that are not moving are not making money for the airline, and all of us HATE it, but it is what it is.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Make the seats wide enough that the 300 pound guy sitting next to me fits and doesn't slop over onto my seat.

Give me enough room in front of my seat that my knees don't press against the seat in front of me.

What you're describing is Business class seating - bigger seats with more leg room. If you want that sort of room, buy the Business class seat every time. If an airline were to create coach class seats wide enough for your 300 pound seatmate to not spill over, the typical narrow body jet would be 2+2 seating, not 3+3. To increase the legroom so that everybody would have plenty of knee space would require also removing quite a few rows of those now 2+2 (instead of 3+3) seats. Do you see where this is headed? Sounds a lot like Business class, doesn't it. So, we take out two seats per row, and remove maybe 5 complete rows of seats out of a 25 row coach cabin to give you more legroom, which is the only way to do it. So, a 150 seat coach cabin (25 rows X 6 seats per row) has now become a 80 seat cabin (20 rows X 4 seats). Almost half of the revenue of the coach cabin has been removed. But wait, we don't want to give up those low prices for seats (lowest ever when adjusted for inflation), so the airlines will just have to eat the lost revenue.

So, again, if you want a bigger seat with more legroom, buy a Business class seat. Really.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Provide cabin crew that help passengers.

Cabin Crew in Business and First class will generally make a serious effort to help their passengers. In a coach class cabin, with 150 to 180 people all trying to get into their seats, find room in the overhead bins, etc., how do you expect a Flight attendant to come ambling up the aisle ('scuse me, pardon me, 'scuse me, coming through) to help you stow your bag? Not only that, generally, most men are larger and stronger than most FA's. Why would you need help from them? Load you own bag into the overhead bin and sit down so that those around you might also be able to do the same, and allow an on-time departure. I mean, honestly, think about it. If a Flight Attendant's duties should include those similar to a bellhop at a hotel, then the airline would need twenty or more FA's for a 150 passenger cabin, and the aisles would need to be about twice as wide as they are now, in order to allow them to meander back and forth hefting bags into the bins while passengers are also standing in said aisles (wait, it might be with the 2+2 seating I described earlier).

This might lead to higher crew costs though, which might increase the cost of your ticket significantly.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Maintain posted schedules.

Let me remind you that an airline would LOVE to maintain their set schedule and NEVER be late, ever. And they usually ARE on time. In fact, most flights arrive at their destinations EARLY. The reality of airline travel through a rather congested three dimensional environment, with good weather and bad weather spread all over the country and world - which has a huge impact on flow rates into an airport - and an airline's REQUIREMENT to comply with FAA directives concerning maintenance and crew rest, oftentimes interfere with that perfect world of every flight is always on time. Being on time, every time is just not going to happen in the real world we live in and on.

So yes, given reality, your demands are at the very least, unrealistic.

It wouldn't bother me if the industry doubled the per seat price, gave me a couple inches of legroom back, cleaned the friggen interiors occasionally and hired gate agents and FA's that weren't c*nts. Nobody made you take the job beotches.

[450knotOffice]

I agree, but look at the flipside. Most start out as nice young, helpful FA's and agents, then eventually get so sick and tired of being treated like crap by so many idiot passengers, that they eventually just say "f**k these idiots. My take is that when they reach that point, it's time to get out of the business and find a new line of work.

Rude, demanding, ******* passengers day after day, month after month, year after year basically create these c*nts you describe.

Chicken or egg?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

Ok, so here's the deal. Waiting on the ramp or taxiway for takeoff clearance is not the choice of the airline.

If they hate it so much why did they lobby congress to make it legal to make us sit on the tarmac for up to 3 hours before taking the plane back to the gate? They have an incentive to keep us out there or they wouldn't do it and they wouldn't have spent money on lobbyists to make it legal.

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

What you're describing is Business class seating - bigger seats with more leg room. If you want that sort of room, buy the Business class seat every time.

So, again, if you want a bigger seat with more legroom, buy a Business class seat. Really.

I was in the 4th row on the last leg of the flight yesterday and every seat within sight was just like mine. Maybe they put business class in the back of a CRJ 200?

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

Cabin Crew in Business and First class will generally make a serious effort to help their passengers. In a coach class cabin, with 150 to 180 people all trying to get into their seats, find room in the overhead bins, etc., how do you expect a Flight attendant to come ambling up the aisle ('scuse me, pardon me, 'scuse me, coming through) to help you stow your bag?

Someone is going to have to go up and down the isle looking for storage space. It seems to me it would be better to have the passengers sitting and the crew checking the bins than to have 150 to 180 people in the aisles looking for an empty bin.
In the case yesterday, the "helpful" crew member put his hands behind his back and leaned on the wall and said, "You'll have to try to find space up front."

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

This might lead to higher crew costs though, which might increase the cost of your ticket significantly.

Notice i never once mentioned cost? I fly business when it is available, but you know what? We are still subject to the delays and screw ups that affect the rest of the passengers.

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

Let me remind you that an airline would LOVE to maintain their set schedule and NEVER be late, ever.

I'm skeptical. I knew 7 days before the flight that it was supposed to leave at 5:35. Somehow it was a surprise to US Air and they forgot to send a flight crew. We had to wait an hour for them to round someone up to fly the plane. Scheduling a flight without scheduling the crew seems pretty short sighted to me.

I run a business myself. When someone complains, I listen and try to help. I want my customers to be happy. Your "Screw you you're just a customer and this is as good as it's going to get" attitude is typical of the airlines and it's part of the problem.

[group911@aol.co]

And along the same lines, nobody is holding a gun to your head to fly.

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

It wouldn't bother me if the industry doubled the per seat price, gave me a couple inches of legroom back, cleaned the friggen interiors occasionally and hired gate agents and FA's that weren't c*nts. Nobody made you take the job beotches.

[group911@aol.co]

Before the 3 hour rule, there was no rule. You could sit as long as it took. Just out of curiosity, what do you think the airline has to gain by having that plane sitting out there? Maybe it's the extra drinks they can sell you?
Once again, that time is 99% of the time dictated by the airport and FAA operations.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

If they hate it so much why did they lobby congress to make it legal to make us sit on the tarmac for up to 3 hours before taking the plane back to the gate? They have an incentive to keep us out there or they wouldn't do it and they wouldn't have spent money on lobbyists to make it legal.

[Seahawk]

I have just been appointed King of All Airlines and by royal decree, I, uh, decree the following:

- No carry-on luggage. Men get a brief case or small backpack, women the same and a purse. That is it. No exceptions. All checked baggage is checked free of charge.

- Load from the rear seats forward....Without luggage this will be a snap. First class and business can wait. We are all going the same place.

- Anyone over 320lbs buys two seats.

That is it for now. I will discuss flight attendant qualifications soon

[450knotOffice]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

If they hate it so much why did they lobby congress to make it legal to make us sit on the tarmac for up to 3 hours before taking the plane back to the gate? They have an incentive to keep us out there or they wouldn't do it and they wouldn't have spent money on lobbyists to make it legal.

If they get out of a long line like that (I have had to do that), the flight will be cancelled. This is absolutely true. Why? Because a plane does not just get its spot back in line. It heads back to the end of the long line, at which point the flight is no longer viable. Cancellations are bad. Most people, when given the choice, would rather sit, than head back to the gate, only for it to be cancelled. Three hours gives the airline a fighting chance of actually completing the flight on one of those massively delayed days. Three hour conga lines are not too uncommon at ORD or JFK.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I was in the 4th row on the last leg of the flight yesterday and every seat within sight was just like mine. Maybe they put business class in the back of a CRJ 200?

So, the seat was big enough to fit a 300 pounder without him spilling over into your seat? I don't believe that. In fact, I know it's not true, and it was one of your stated wants. And, as far as leg room goes, which airline has CRJ's with legroom near 36 to 37 inches? I know of none. Normal seat pitch on all airliners is 31-32 inches. The extra legroom rows near the front have 36 to 37 inches. If you want that kind of legroom from front to back, the only way will be to pull rows, which will cost revenue, which will cost the passenger.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Someone is going to have to go up and down the isle looking for storage space. It seems to me it would be better to have the passengers sitting and the crew checking the bins than to have 150 to 180 people in the aisles looking for an empty bin.
In the case yesterday, the "helpful" crew member put his hands behind his back and leaned on the wall and said, "You'll have to try to find space up front."

And he's right. You bring that thing on, YOU find space for it.

It is not his job to haul your bag around, nor should it be. He is not a Valet, as much as you might want him to be.

Here's an honest suggestion - I do it every time I get on a jet as a passenger (and usually one of the last as a non-rev) - when you are getting on the jet, assuming you're not one of the earlier ones on, but rather a later passenger getting on an already crowded jet, place your bag in the FIRST open spot you find as you are walking down the aisle. Don't wait until you get to the back, only to find out there's nothing left and you then need to schlepp your bag back to the front.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

I'm skeptical. I knew 7 days before the flight that it was supposed to leave at 5:35. Somehow it was a surprise to US Air and they forgot to send a flight crew. We had to wait an hour for them to round someone up to fly the plane. Scheduling a flight without scheduling the crew seems pretty short sighted to me.

I run a business myself. When someone complains, I listen and try to help. I want my customers to be happy. Your "Screw you you're just a customer and this is as good as it's going to get" attitude is typical of the airlines and it's part of the problem.

Your skepticism is unfounded. There is NO reason why an airline would WANT to be late. Don't be ridiculous. It costs them money to be late.

The USAIR flight didn't forget to send a crew. There was likely a misconnect with the crew (most crews don't fly just one flight in a day, rather two or three), or one or all of them were not legal for their departure due to FAA mandated minimum crew rest issues - usually caused by being late inbound the night before due to weather, a mechanical, a late airplane for THEM the day before, or whatever. Maybe one of them called out sick, or was pulled to fly a different flight that was late due to a missing crew member for the same reasons.

Airlines do NOT somehow forget to crew a flight. Most flights are already crewed by about the 20th of the previous month. The rest are filled by Reserve pilots usually a day or so before the flight. However, as I illustrated, circumstances can arise to cause a crew to be late to the jet or to have been re-assigned to another flight.

I understand your complaints, however, just because you complain or don't understand how complex the entire business of moving thousands of airplanes and hundreds of thousand of passengers each day is, given all the variables involved, doesn't mean that we don't care. We do. Most of us genuinely try to do our best, and the vast majority of passengers are great, with loads of patience in sometimes trying circumstances. It's the self righteous, loud mouth, all knowing me me me passengers that never ever seem to hear us, but rather just put their fingers in their ears and continue to complain.

I TOTALLY agree that flying these days, at least as a coach passenger, is a miserable experience. The security lines are a mess. The cost of parking is astronomical or totally inconvenient. There are lines inside the secure area for EVERYTHING - bathrooms, coffee, the bar for a beer or wine, every crappy place to eat at the food courts. The airplanes are FULL FULL FULL with wall to wall bodies. The seating is cramped. Some passengers are surly. It's no fun. I know that. I spend a lot of time in the passenger cabin deadheading or commuting, and I dislike it. However, I realize that flying has become the 21st century equivalent of taking a us to get from point A to point B, with millions using the system every day. The crowds and the chaos will never go away. Airport terminals remind me of the hustle bustle of urban subway stations at rush hour. THAT really is the worst part of it, and unfortunately, we are stuck with it.

Originally Posted by group911@aol.co

And along the same lines, nobody is holding a gun to your head to fly.

Boss is holding a paycheck to my head.

[DanielDudley]

Remember the Donner party. I'll bet those folks would have jumped at the chance to be treated like cattle. Americans have become so spoiled and unappreciative of what they have. Without cars or planes, it would take me three days to walk to where the airport is, much less go to California.

Up next; The odiousness of bridges.

[Neilk]

Originally Posted by Nate2046

I just deleted everything I wrote in response to this because, what's the point? I get it that you want to vent and you're not going to listen to anything I say anyway. But you have to understand from our perspective as flight crews its hard to listen to that everyday, day after day.

I really like flying these passengers now. They may smell marginally worse but their disposition is generally better.

Cows as airplane cargo? That seems crazy expensive. Are they all prize winning heifers or something?

[HardDrive]

Currently sitting in a hotel near heathrow because our flight from New Delhi was 3 hours late. We needed to be rebooked. I won't lie, I have my 11 year old daughter with me....I lied/bullied my way into the 'expedited' line. It took 45 minutes. I later talked with a guy who waited in the regular line. 4 hours. 4 hours after a 9 hour flight, and 3 hours on the ground in Delhi because the ground staff had f'ed up the baggage paperwork. Incredible.

[motion]

Wow. Just wow.

I flew something like 180 flights last year and didn't experience any of what's *****ed about in this thread. I think someone's expectations are too high, or they just plain have the wrong attitude.

Truthfully, I remember some of this stuff from flying in the past, but I made an effort to gain status and put that nonsense behind me.

You guys can do that, too.