If Snowden Returns To The US?

[yazhound]

Originally Posted by gordner

So is the 4th ammendment, and the NSA roaming around your computer files is most certainly unlawful search.....

Stuns me so many are ok with this....I disagree with Snowden's methods absolutely, but in the end his intentions were not to harm the US but to wake up the populace to their Orwillian reality...

Yeah that little 4th amendment thing.... no laws broken there. Nope. Totally legel. Guys are blind to the wrong and refuse to see the obvious out of fear.

How about, local cops do this to you? You ok? Same thing different scale, different intruder, different reason. A good one? Maybe legal with particularized warrant. Not a chance without. Some gov't functionary who remains nameless says it's ok does not make it ok.

How do those feeling NSA has not violated 4th confirm the legality of their actions?

[yazhound]

Any guilt on Snowden does not obviate or exculpate NSA.

[Tobra]

I hope he gets a fair trial and first rate hanging.

[Norm K]

[dlockhart]

"Providing your fellow countrymen with information that the State is spying on them is not traitorous, that is unless your allegiance lies more to the State than to freedom itself."

Snowden is No Traitor, Here's Why, Let's Stop that Talk Now #PatrioticStockholmSyndrome | Punk Rock Libertarians

[jorian]

Like Ellsberg before him, Snowden has no chance of a fair trial in the US. In the court of World opinion Snowden will be remembered favourably.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by yazhound

Yeah that little 4th amendment thing.... no laws broken there. Nope. Totally legel. Guys are blind to the wrong and refuse to see the obvious out of fear.

How about, local cops do this to you? You ok? Same thing different scale, different intruder, different reason. A good one? Maybe legal with particularized warrant. Not a chance without. Some gov't functionary who remains nameless says it's ok does not make it ok.

How do those feeling NSA has not violated 4th confirm the legality of their actions?

No laws broken...pretty much correct, unless you don't believe in the power of our nation to enact laws and the Supreme Court to uphold them.

Of course if you feel your knowledge of the 4th Amendment exceeds that of the Supreme Court...I would like to see you make the case. So far, no one else has been able to do so successfully.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by jorian

Like Ellsberg before him, Snowden has no chance of a fair trial in the US. In the court of World opinion Snowden will be remembered favourably.

LOL...So will Obama...and in many places, Osama...LOL

A fair trial would ensure that he would be convicted of theft and espionage (open and shut). The only question would be Treason.

Whether or not you cheer this info coming out or are outraged...the simple truth of the matter is that people entrusted with classified (especially Top Secret) cannot determine on their own, what should be released. In most cases, they would not know enough to make that determination since we tend to break it up into small pieces based on need to know. A good example is Manning. I am sure that he didn't intend for people to die when he released what he did...but that certainly was the result.

The sheer arrogance of Snowden (not even a HS grad) to assume his judgment was so superior to make such a decision is beyond belief.

The answer lies with the definition of Top Secret. "Disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security". The information released was classified as information that needs additional protection above TS. Snowden would likely not know enough to understand the full repercussions of the release of the information.

If we are all to personally determine which national security secrets our conscience dictate we reveal...then you would similarly have no problem with a nuclear weapons guy posting vulnerabilities of our weapons if he didn't believe in MAD?

Who is he, or you or me to make that decision?

There are plenty of ways of whistle-blowing without releasing TS info to the public. Whether you agree or disagree with whatever the govt. is alleged to have done...certainly what this fellow has done is heinous. he didn't just release info regarding the level of NSA surveillance, but stole gigabytes, if not terabytes of the nations top secrets and released them to uncleared foreigners.

There are plenty of ways to be a whistleblower without coloring outside the lines. Did it myself. It was painful, but the right thing to do.

The Ft Hood shooter was reportedly acting on his conscience as well...

[jyl]

I started this thread, then got busy and didn't participate. Sorry. Quickly, my view:
- "Acting his conscience" is no defense. Most spies and most terrorists could use the same defense. Your average ISIS killer is probably sincere in his beliefs.
- "In the end, he did good", if true, is for the twin judges of conscience and history. Not for the judge in the criminal courtroom. We are a nation of laws, and the laws don't say that the ends justify the means.
- When he disclosed terabytes of classified data and took the rest to Moscow, he knew he was committing a crime and that he'd never see the US again outside of a prison cell. He made that decision with his eyes wide open.
- If he returns, I would like to see him tried. If found guilty, I'd like to see him serve his sentence. If it is a capital sentence, I'd like to see it carried out.
- Just like Pvt Manning.

[john70t]

So the NSA is already a private contractor.

Who else has access to this data?
Haliburton? Blackwater/Xe/Academi?
Hillery's cousin in the IT department?
Jethro the county sheriff with an inkling for nude selfies of yer nice booty blond cousin?

"He released them to uncleared foreigners."
Such as raw data obtained from warrant-less searches to Israel?

Snowden released (too much and criminally imo) information to the general public.
There are a thousand Snowdens trading information on the black market.
Alan Grayson Accuses Former NSA Chief Of Disclosing Classified Information 'For Profit'

[zfbfh]

I'd like to see him return to the US and stand trial. But, only if the trial is broadcast on TV or the Internet unedited. It would be a be an interesting time to gauge the public sentiment on privacy and security.

[yazhound]

Originally Posted by fintstone

No laws broken...pretty much correct, unless you don't believe in the power of our nation to enact laws and the Supreme Court to uphold them.

Of course if you feel your knowledge of the 4th Amendment exceeds that of the Supreme Court...I would like to see you make the case. So far, no one else has been able to do so successfully.

If you believe there are no political decisions made within the SCt you are foolish. (well we know that already). Most of NSAs eavesdropping would not pass muster for the best of prosecutors and the most liberal of warrant signing judges.
.... well Your Honor, see this guy sammy, he lives near some muslims, and well, they drive past each other twice a week, so, I think he may be a security check so I want to gather all is emails, and see who he talks with on his cell, and hell, lets check his spending habits too for good measure... Nope. That does not sustain a warrant no matter how liberally you want to construe justification.

[john70t]

The NSA back doors are a double-edge sword.

Now that American computers are made overseas:
‪Obama criticises China's mandatory backdoor tech import rules • The Register
"In an interview with Reuters, Obama said Beijing's far-reaching counter-terrorism law would require technology firms to hand over encryption keys as well as installing "backdoors" into systems, thus granting Chinese authorities access in the process."

[island911]

Originally Posted by fintstone

As far as I know, Snowden made a big splash, but was not able to show any violation of the Constitution and things are no different than before he became a traitor...except he probably cost the nation billions of dollars, likely cost quite a few lives, lowered our ability to protect the nation, divulged a great deal of classified information and hurt relationships with foreign allies.

Imagine if everyone who had access to classified information decided to steal it and go to China/Russia?

Let's compare him to Obama.

Now, what?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by yazhound

If you believe there are no political decisions made within the SCt you are foolish. (well we know that already)...

LOL. That is some argument you have there.

Originally Posted by yazhound

..Most of NSAs eavesdropping would not pass muster for the best of prosecutors and the most liberal of warrant signing judges...

So? That is not what the law requires.

Originally Posted by yazhound

.... well Your Honor, see this guy sammy, he lives near some muslims, and well, they drive past each other twice a week, so, I think he may be a security check so I want to gather all is emails, and see who he talks with on his cell, and hell, lets check his spending habits too for good measure... Nope. That does not sustain a warrant no matter how liberally you want to construe justification.

Huh? And you call me foolish? You do realize that is not what NSA does...don't you?

[azasadny]

Originally Posted by fintstone

LOL...So will Obama...and in many places, Osama...LOL

A fair trial would ensure that he would be convicted of theft and espionage (open and shut). The only question would be Treason.

Whether or not you cheer this info coming out or are outraged...the simple truth of the matter is that people entrusted with classified (especially Top Secret) cannot determine on their own, what should be released. In most cases, they would not know enough to make that determination since we tend to break it up into small pieces based on need to know. A good example is Manning. I am sure that he didn't intend for people to die when he released what he did...but that certainly was the result.

The sheer arrogance of Snowden (not even a HS grad) to assume his judgment was so superior to make such a decision is beyond belief.

The answer lies with the definition of Top Secret. "Disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security". The information released was classified as information that needs additional protection above TS. Snowden would likely not know enough to understand the full repercussions of the release of the information.

If we are all to personally determine which national security secrets our conscience dictate we reveal...then you would similarly have no problem with a nuclear weapons guy posting vulnerabilities of our weapons if he didn't believe in MAD?

Who is he, or you or me to make that decision?

There are plenty of ways of whistle-blowing without releasing TS info to the public. Whether you agree or disagree with whatever the govt. is alleged to have done...certainly what this fellow has done is heinous. he didn't just release info regarding the level of NSA surveillance, but stole gigabytes, if not terabytes of the nations top secrets and released them to uncleared foreigners.

There are plenty of ways to be a whistleblower without coloring outside the lines. Did it myself. It was painful, but the right thing to do.

The Ft Hood shooter was reportedly acting on his conscience as well...

Amen!

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by fintstone

There are plenty of ways of whistle-blowing without releasing TS info to the public. Whether you agree or disagree with whatever the govt. is alleged to have done...certainly what this fellow has done is heinous. he didn't just release info regarding the level of NSA surveillance, but stole gigabytes, if not terabytes of the nations top secrets and released them to uncleared foreigners.

There are plenty of ways to be a whistleblower without coloring outside the lines.
.

exactly

[diverdan]

He clearly violated his terms of security clearance. As a result of his actions, corporate and government regulations have become a real PITA. Beyond personal grief, he set back some important programs that have in fact improved international security. The ignorance of terrorists and thieves is a good thing for the good guys. Unfortunately, these groups have a lot of youngsters who are real digital wizzes and use the digital highway for propagation of terror. Their influence has been far more effective than any electronic eavesdropping deterrence the good guys have been able to accomplish. There is way more information out there for the picking by the bad guys than any of us want. I'm sorry his life is permanently messed up, but even more disappointed by some of the loss of international security. Yes, it is real. Lives will be lost and billions more spent to fend it off. Personally, there is even false information about me that can be traced back to U.S. government offices.

[cashflyer]

He deserves a Fair and Public trial, as do those who allegedly committed the unconstitutional acts he is purported to have revealed.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by fintstone

LOL...So will Obama...and in many places, Osama...LOL

A fair trial would ensure that he would be convicted of theft and espionage (open and shut). The only question would be Treason.

Whether or not you cheer this info coming out or are outraged...the simple truth of the matter is that people entrusted with classified (especially Top Secret) cannot determine on their own, what should be released. In most cases, they would not know enough to make that determination since we tend to break it up into small pieces based on need to know. A good example is Manning. I am sure that he didn't intend for people to die when he released what he did...but that certainly was the result.

The sheer arrogance of Snowden (not even a HS grad) to assume his judgment was so superior to make such a decision is beyond belief.

The answer lies with the definition of Top Secret. "Disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security". The information released was classified as information that needs additional protection above TS. Snowden would likely not know enough to understand the full repercussions of the release of the information.

If we are all to personally determine which national security secrets our conscience dictate we reveal...then you would similarly have no problem with a nuclear weapons guy posting vulnerabilities of our weapons if he didn't believe in MAD?

Who is he, or you or me to make that decision?

There are plenty of ways of whistle-blowing without releasing TS info to the public. Whether you agree or disagree with whatever the govt. is alleged to have done...certainly what this fellow has done is heinous. he didn't just release info regarding the level of NSA surveillance, but stole gigabytes, if not terabytes of the nations top secrets and released them to uncleared foreigners.

There are plenty of ways to be a whistleblower without coloring outside the lines. Did it myself. It was painful, but the right thing to do.

The Ft Hood shooter was reportedly acting on his conscience as well...

Fint, to me he represents the government that was trusted to protect that information. His actions are the failure of the government, and exemplify why the government cannot and should not be trusted to protect the security of the information it collects.