If Snowden Returns To The US?

[SilberUrS6]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

as do those who allegedly committed the unconstitutional acts he is purported to have revealed.

This is the part that gets short shrift. If the Constitution means anything, at all, then there needs to be a criminal accounting for the violation of the principles therein.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Taz's Master

Fint, to me he represents the government that was trusted to protect that information. His actions are the failure of the government, and exemplify why the government cannot and should not be trusted to protect the security of the information it collects.

I see it as a failure of the electorate. An electorate so sure that the private sector does everything better than military and government employees that they elect representatives who privatize inherently government functions that military/federal employees did well for decades.

His actions show that citizens should get their heads out of their ass and realize that both the Executive and Legislative Branches vilifying and scapegoating federal employees and the military is just a ploy to triple the cost of government by passing the work on to the private sector folks who contribute to their campaigns and employ them after they leave office.

[jyl]

+1

Widespread outsourcing government work to private contractors is a way to enrich congressmen, ceos, and retired generals. It doesn't save money or do a better job. Being anti-government is practically a religion among many politicians and voters today. This ideology is supported by many very rich business donors, and I wonder why.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by fintstone

.. triple the cost of government by passing the work on to the private sector...

Wasn't Snowden a private contractor?

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by john70t

Wasn't Snowden a private contractor?

Oh Yeah... Five Things We've Already Forgotten About Snowden's NSA Leaks | Motherboard

[john70t]

Seriously: Would the world accept this originating from any different country such as China or Russia?

This eats away at Pax Americana.
One revelation at a time.

NSA Global Spy Stations Revealed: 'Sniff It All, Collect It All, Know It All, Process It All, Exploit It All' | Common Dreams | Breaking News & Views for the Progressive Community

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by john70t

Wasn't Snowden a private contractor?

Yes. That was the point.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by john70t

Seriously: Would the world accept this originating from any different country such as China or Russia?

This eats away at Pax Americana.
One revelation at a time...

What makes you think Russia and China are spying on everyone? Where do you think they get most of their military technology?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

Oh Yeah... Five Things We've Already Forgotten About Snowden's NSA Leaks | Motherboard

That is mostly inaccurate...as are the other conspiracy type articles linked here. Contractors are not used to avoid scrutiny, but rather, their salaries are severely limited by the Executive and Legislative Branches while their agenda and tasks grow exponentially. Using contractors for what used to be considered inherently governmental tasks creates many problems (and results in much higher costs and greater inefficiencies).

[john70t]

Originally Posted by fintstone

What makes you think Russia and China are spying on everyone? Where do you think they get most of their military technology?

Israel?

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I see it as a failure of the electorate. An electorate so sure that the private sector does everything better than military and government employees that they elect representatives who privatize inherently government functions that military/federal employees did well for decades.

His actions show that citizens should get their heads out of their ass and realize that both the Executive and Legislative Branches ... is just a ploy to triple the cost of government by passing the work on to the private sector folks who contribute to their campaigns and employ them after they leave office.

That is much the same message Mr. Snowden is sending. Who knew you and he thought so much alike?

[fintstone]

I don't think that is the case at all. In fact, it could not be further from the truth.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I don't think that is the case at all. In fact, it could not be further from the truth.

You and he disagree about the effectiveness/appropriateness of the whistleblowing procedure. He seems to believe that the individuals working in/for the government have a more personal responsibility for any inappropriate activities, and he seems (I'm making some assumptions about the thinking of someone I do not know at all) to believe that just because an argument can be made about the technical legality of an activity, it does not justify the appropriateness of the activity.

That said, Mr. Snowden does seem to be saying that the problems stem from an unaware/apathetic electorate that will not hold itself accountable for electing leaders that will act in society's best interests. His intentions seem to me to be that US society be made aware of what we are doing to ourselves.

This is where you are placing the blame as well, and the more basic underlying problem as well, is it not? You may disagree strongly with the appropriateness of his methods, but you guys are looking at the same problem - the damage those we elect are doing - and seeing the same answer - society needs to be more responsible.

[fintstone]

My sole point was that the main problem here is with Mr. Snowden who put his own ego above the law and the good of his nation...something that he swore not to do. The only reason that Mr. Snowden was in the position to do what he did was due to the fact that the military and federal government are required to hire contractors to do work that military and Feds should be doing. There seems to be a hugely mistaken belief (among voters, pundits and lawmakers) that the private sector does things like this better and less expensively, but that just is not the case. The requirement to contract services out (and usually to the lowest bidder) result in the employment of losers like Snowden and the waste of billions of dollars repairing the destruction they cause.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by fintstone

My sole point was that the main problem here is with Mr. Snowden who put his own ego above the law and the good of his nation...something that he swore not to do. The only reason that Mr. Snowden was in the position to do what he did was due to the fact that the military and federal government are required to hire contractors to do work that military and Feds should be doing. There seems to be a hugely mistaken belief (among voters, pundits and lawmakers) that the private sector does things like this better and less expensively, but that just is not the case. The requirement to contract services out (and usually to the lowest bidder) result in the employment of losers like Snowden and the waste of billions of dollars repairing the destruction they cause.

The "employment of losers like Snowden", is done by the government. The same entity that justifies the collection of the information also dictates who does the collecting and analysis, and is responsible for failures in the security of the process.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Taz's Master

The "employment of losers like Snowden", is done by the government. The same entity that justifies the collection of the information also dictates who does the collecting and analysis, and is responsible for failures in the security of the process.

No. The federal agency hires a contractor to do their IT (not by choice, but because elected officials demand it). The contractor hires "losers like Snowden".

I have many folks from the same contractor (and others) that work with me. None are as qualified or skilled as their Federal or military counterparts and yet they cost much more. It is the only way Feds are allowed to get the manpower required to do the tasks they are directed to do by law and executive direction.

Snowden didn't do collection and analysis. He was a low level IT guy.

When you run a pro baseball team in a tough league, but the voters, through Congress, require you use little leaguers in key positions...disaster cannot help but happen.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by fintstone

No. The federal agency hires a contractor to do their IT (not by choice, but because elected officials demand it). The contractor hires "losers like Snowden".

Snowden didn't do collection and analysis. He was a low level IT guy.

When you run a pro baseball team in a tough league, but the voters, through Congress, require you use little leaguers in key positions...disaster cannot help but happen.

So, the government hired him as an IT guy. The government is still responsible for his employment, and his access to the information, and the security of that information.

[Norm K]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Snowden didn't do collection and analysis. He was a low level IT guy.

Whatever his sources might have been (e.g. information gleaned from the noteworthy efforts of highly professional, patriotic, hard-working, loyal government employees, versus other lowly contract employees like himself) it certainly appears as though Snowden did some collection and analysis, doesn't it?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Taz's Master

So, the government hired him as an IT guy. The government is still responsible for his employment, and his access to the information, and the security of that information.

No. The government did not hire him. He worked for a private firm who hired him. They bid on a contract and won.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by nkowi

Whatever his sources might have been (e.g. information gleaned from the noteworthy efforts of highly professional, patriotic, hard-working, loyal government employees, versus other lowly contract employees like himself) it certainly appears as though Snowden did some collection and analysis, doesn't it?

LOL...like Manning, he downloaded the hard drives . I guess you could call espionage "collection" much as we do ISR.