Quality of Foreign Tech Degrees/Workers

[930addict]

This article really angered me. I have a relative that went through the same thing (outsourcing to India - even had to train his predecessor) a few years ago and the quality went down so much that at one point they tried to put the American team back together.

A couple of years ago we hired a system engineer for a very specific task. He was an H1B visa employee from India. After a month on the job it was apparent he had no clue what he was doing and, in fact, I was training him when he was supposed to be the specialist in this particular area. So we let him go and brought on another engineer that was local that turned out to be an awesome and valuable member of the team. Looking back, the H1B guy sounded different on the phone interview than he did in person. Additionally, when he would get stuck on something he always called someone who would help him.

So fast forward a year, we had another opening for another engineer. All but two of the applicants had degrees from somewhere in India. After interviewing about 15 applicants, only one candidate was able to answer questions related to the field. It was obvious that they all padded their resumes as none of them could answer simple questions except for the one we ended up hiring. Some of their resumes look better than my entire team combined - and I have an awesome team - but these candidates didn't know jack. One of them said that she knew C so I asked her how to dereference a pointer. It doesn't get much easier than that, right? Was that question too hard for someone that would be making $80/hour?(the contract company is billing us $80/hour - she was probably making $50 or ?)

There's another guy we just brought on (Not in my group) that has a Masters Degree in Artificial Intelligence from an Indian University. So far I am not impressed. So I put it to you, what has your experience been with these H1B workers? It seems that the only thing they have going for them is they work for cheap. I hate to paint with such broad strokes but this has been my experience.

[aschen]

Im an engineering mgr. I hire bunches of engineers and work with hundreds of engineers of varying backgrounds.

I agree with your statement about broad strokes. However, one mans stereotype maybe considered a judicious application of statistics by the initiated engineer .

In general I find many "foreign" workers are talented at analysis and analytical stuff. IN general I find many 'mericans are talented at design and hands on type work.

When I was in grad school my advisor wasnt so PC. She was chinese and said: aschen i dont want anybody but you to touch the expensive equipment, and I want the chinese students to do all the math. I was the only non asian in the small group

[romad]

Another Myth... I have never seen a educational or technical gap .pure BS. In fact American technical personnel generally have more hands on experience. Colleges are cranking out more than enough qualified engineers and technicians. Companies want foreigners because they are cheaper.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by 930addict

Was that question too hard for someone that would be making $80/hour?(the contract company is billing us $80/hour - she was probably making $50 or ?)

I have some experience in this area; she was probably making $20-$30/hr. If she was FOB, could be as low as $15.

So far I am not impressed. So I put it to you, what has your experience been with these H1B workers? It seems that the only thing they have going for them is they work for cheap. I hate to paint with such broad strokes but this has been my experience.

While I have run across some H1's who were actually good, 98% of them seem to only have their price going for them.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by romad

Another Myth... I have never seen a educational or technical gap .pure BS. In fact American technical personnel generally have more hands on experience. Colleges are cranking out more than enough qualified engineers and technicians. Companies want foreigners because they are cheaper.

I've seen companies whose executives cries that they don't have enough tech people and they need more H1 slots at the exact same time that they are laying off said tech people.

[Willem Fick]

It angers me too, but for an entirely different reason, as it seems to assume that everyone on the H-1B scheme is incompetent by default.

As a "foreigner" it is easy to brush me and some of my well educated and qualified engineering colleagues in the third world with the same broad "quality" brush. In reality though I have a first class engineering degree from a school with good international standing and accreditation, and I have extensive experience with a variety of multinational corporations.

Sadly I too compete with "cheap" foreign (Indian) tech skills sourced for their low cost but whom, once they arrive here are determined to "wing it" until they pick up the actual skills, all to the detriment of both myself and the client.

My expertise and experience comes at a price not dissimilar to what someone like me would cost if I were an american in the US. This is because my "price" is aligned to my actual proven skills as opposed to my claimed skills.

Sadly the bean counters don't see it that way and want to measure everything in terms of cost saving.

The downside is simple; you get what you pay for. Do you want to blame the H-1B scheme for it, or rather go have a nice chat with the cost accountants that fuel this situation?

[930addict]

Originally Posted by aschen

...In general I find many "foreign" workers are talented at analysis and analytical stuff. IN general I find many 'mericans are talented at design and hands on type work....

You know what's funny is that my experience has been exactly the opposite. Here's a rather pedestrian example that clearly illustrates my experience. I was going to lunch with one of our H1B engineers (the one we had to let go). Due to our parking lot being full and also since the place was less than a mile down the street we didn't want to drive so we set out to take the bus. We're waiting at the bus stop when he starts calculating how long it would take to walk vs the bus schedule. While he was engrossed in calculating the bus pulls up and I said the bus is here lets just take the bus. It is obvious that a person cannot walk faster than the bus, right? This guy says," wait no cause if we start now it would only take us fifteen minutes to walk." The bus pulls away and he's still trying to explain his calculations to me. I let him talk. After he was done talking I told him that we would have been there by now had we just gotten on the bus. Yes he knew math but he didn't have the common sense to apply it.

Another example from several years ago, two H1B engineers from India were trying to decide how long a cable to get that would start at a point on the ceiling, go across to a wall and then reach down the corner of one of the walls in the room. We didn't need a lot of accuracy as it was for an extension chord. They had a tape measure. Instead of just measuring from a point on the floor below where the cable was to go then measure the height of the wall they started calculating using the a^2+b^2=c^2 method taking nearly 30 minutes(including all of their arguing with each other) to do what could have been done in 3 minutes. I admit I just sat back and chuckled as the two did their rounds.

[Deschodt]

Leaving aside the actual competence of foreign workers, this is what annoys me about the IT industry too... I've worked for some big names in IT and big companies' IT depts.

It's the SAME $**** every 5-10 years. "Management" wants to save money by outsourcing (to India or these days a big service provider, which then outsources to India ;-). Then, oops, the software that comes out is crap, quality is down, or the services provided suck, the vendor underdelivers and raises their price. 2y later, like clockwork, they try to bring back the local workers they fired, who by then have either changed career or won't come back... It's so prevalent there should be Harvard case studies writen on this, yet EVERYONE does this, over and over. I suppose it's like us: We KNOW it's better to pay for someone else's restoration, but the $5000 rusty 911 is hard to resist...

Gone through this 3 times in 20yrs. Last one to leave the first 2. Last time, I resigned 2 weeks after the initial announcement (despite being assured I'd be the last to go again, F$%^ that ! ). Key is to relo in an industry where the support must be local and not outsourceable.
After that, H1Bs are from all over... 90% of the ones I worked with were brits and great to work (and party) with !

[aigel]

Totall BS thread. "I hate to paint with a broad brush, but let me do it anyway".

I work in the heart of the Silicon Valley and my company is the united nations with quite a few US born employees as well. We kick ass and we hire whoever is best for the job, doesn't matter what passport, country of origin, skin color, accent. That includes US born engineers as well.

This really is a non issue IMHO. If you attract hot air resumes, fix your recruiting strategy, run an attractive company, pay well.

G

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Had a mechanical engineer (to this day I have no idea how he ever passed the PE exam) from China who was frightfully incompetent a few years ago. I had to take on a lot of additional responsibility to cover my company's ass due to flagrant code violations and life safety issues related to this guy's "work". Turns out he'd bought (as in paid for) his engineering degree back in China which he used to come to the USA and eventually build credentials here. Apparently this is not uncommon practice there too. Scary. This guy was a citizen too (had immigrated years prior).

[930addict]

Originally Posted by aigel

Totall BS thread. "I hate to paint with a broad brush, but let me do it anyway".

I work in the heart of the Silicon Valley and my company is the united nations with quite a few US born employees as well. We kick ass and we hire whoever is best for the job, doesn't matter what passport, country of origin, skin color, accent. That includes US born engineers as well.

This really is a non issue IMHO. If you attract hot air resumes, fix your recruiting strategy, run an attractive company, pay well.

G

Wow - don't get your panties in a bunch. This is about credentials coming out of foreign universities. I see no difference in this discussion and someone saying that the Comp Sci program at XYZ University sucks.



I'm in the heart of Silicon Valley as well. This has nothing to do with race, language or anything else accept our experience with the quality of people with degrees from foreign university. We employ just under 28k people but very few Tech people, relatively speaking, as we are not a tech company. We primarily use job shops when we are looking for people and we typically pay the contract company between $100/hour on the low end to $300/hour. I realize the candidates don't make that but regardless, that's not cheap. These are typically gigs that last for 12 months at a time and sometimes we hire the contractors permanently.



So here's another experience for you. I worked with someone who had a masters in computer engineering from the Philipines. She was supposedly a storage engineer - we hired her from SanDisk. She knew nothing. Even basic IT concepts went right over her head. I was not involved in the interview process for this one.

This has been my experience. I realize that it is limited to my working environment and that is why I asked the question.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Another with multiple negative experiences here, both with individual engineers and contract engineering companies. Slow, unresponsive, poor quality work. The upfront cost is cheap, funny how upper management rarely wants to capture or acknowledge the rework cost.

Edit: I should clarify that my response was in regards to Indian contract labor. I've worked with lots of Brits and other Europeans, it's always been a positive experience.

[gtc]

I'm curious why you get so many foreign educated applicants. Surely something is discouraging more people from applying.

[aschen]

for clarity when I am talking about analysis, I mean PHD or at least MS level. The example where some of these candidates might be lacking in common sense type calculations and engineering approximations is in line with my experience.

In general we consider these applicants only for specialized skills: Things like non linear fea, multiphysics, or magnetic modeling. Usually PHD types

I thought the government makes it very difficult to support work for more general skills.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

I work in a very fast paced, extremely high tech industry where every single company has a large % of foreign workers. The company I work for out of all the companies in the industry has more reason not to hire foreign workers but they chose to do so by actively looking at reqruiting from outside their country.

Just of the top of my head I work people from Italy, Germany, France, Austria, Czech Republic, South Africa, UK, Spain, Switzerland, India, Canada, Slovenia etc Nationality does not come into it as quality always shines through, has nothing to do with race, colour, nationality. Has everything to do with education, training, atitude and experience.

In 18yrs I have only worked with 3 Americans (1 was crap, 1 wore a tin foil hat and 1 is good at what he does). Don't want to paint with broad strokes but generally they just don't have the right degree's, previous experience and are quite reluctant to leave the USA.

I think from your experience you are talking about hiring on price which has nothing to do with nationaliity,

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by 930addict

Instead of just measuring from a point on the floor below where the cable was to go then measure the height of the wall they started calculating using the a^2+b^2=c^2 method taking nearly 30 minutes(including all of their arguing with each other) to do what could have been done in 3 minutes. I admit I just sat back and chuckled as the two did their rounds.

I'm married to an absolute geek Indian woman. Welcome to my life.

[wildthing]

The article refers to abuse of the H1B program, where a job that normally pays 95k would be given to someone who will take 65k for the same work and skill level.

That by itself is just bad.

On the topic of resume padding, that's not good either. I don't think it's confined to H1B workers though.

On whether all H1B workers have been all bad, I guess we remember the bad experiences more than the good ones.

I've worked with many US citizens, many H1B visa holders, and the results are mixed. Some are brilliant, some average, and some don't know what the hell they are talking about. But whether they are a US citizen or H1B holder or British or Canadian or Chinese or Australian or Singaporean, it doesn't matter.

And yes, I am a former H1b holder, now a US citizen, leading a small team in a Silicon Valley company. I did not pad my resume, and I always knew what I was talking about when it comes to work.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by 930addict

Wow - don't get your panties in a bunch. This is about credentials coming out of foreign universities. I see no difference in this discussion and someone saying that the Comp Sci program at XYZ University sucks.

So why is it then the subject that these folks come from abroad? There are plenty of poor quality US universities that churn out poor tech graduates. This is a xenophobic thread and every middle aged white guy now chimes in with their example of an idiot [enter nationality here] they had to work with.

IMHO you should have started a thread on the sweat shop your company runs with the help of temp agencies bringing in sub par labor that they pay poorly in exchange for an H1B while overcharging you. Good engineers don't work for temp agencies, especially in this economy. Top talent is hired straight into a top company that supports their H1B and hires and supports them for the long term.

If it wasn't for the constant influx of foreign talent, tech would be practically non-existent in this country ...

G

[sc_rufctr]

OK... So your Government offers a way for foreign workers to get to the "US of A" and then you're surprised that some (or most?) of them abuse it?

lol... That's funny. What did you expect?

[930addict]

Originally Posted by aigel

So why is it then the subject that these folks come from abroad?

Because I'm asking about people's experience with people with foreign degrees.

Edit: I should also clarify that most of my bad experiences have been with engineers from India.

Originally Posted by aigel

There are plenty of poor quality US universities that churn out poor tech graduates.

You're absolutely correct.

Originally Posted by aigel

This is a xenophobic thread and every middle aged white guy now chimes in with their example of an idiot [enter nationality here] they had to work with.

Who said I was white? I've lived and worked in Silicon Valley for 30 years. Since I was 17 years old I worked with EE's from every corner of the globe and can say the same of the diversity of folks I work with since moving into IT in the 90's. You are misunderstanding the point of this thread. Your very assertion that everyone replying with common experience is a middle-aged xenophobic white guy is problematic. I have no reason to be jaded. Silicon Valley has treated me well.

Originally Posted by aigel

IMHO you should have started a thread on the sweat shop your company runs with the help of temp agencies bringing in sub par labor that they pay poorly in exchange for an H1B while overcharging you. Good engineers don't work for temp agencies, especially in this economy. Top talent is hired straight into a top company that supports their H1B and hires and supports them for the long term.

We hire temps because our needs fluctuate based on project needs. We have a core group that is permanent but sometimes we need more resources of a temporary nature and sometimes we need skills that we don't have in-house so we contract it out until the project is complete. Our IT environment is pretty diverse and high tech, more so than you would see in most high tech companies just due to the nature of our business.

Originally Posted by aigel

If it wasn't for the constant influx of foreign talent, tech would be practically non-existent in this country ...

G

Again, you are misreading the whole point of this thread.