A320 Down

[911_Dude]

In a couple of weeks we will know everything there is to know about this co-pilot. What an incredibly selfish way to take your life. And to take with him over a hundred people that trusted him to get them to their next stop.

This is not good for the industry at all. I know that in the US pilots are allowed to be medically treated for depression and still retain their license. I never thought that was a good idea.

[ckissick]

Why is it possible to set the auto pilot to an elevation of 100 feet when the ground below you is at a higher elevation? It seems like it should be able to adjust to avoid a crash. Of course, the pilot could have just switched to manual. Still...

[rfuerst911sc]

I'm curious other than the pilot/co-pilot is anyone else on the flight crew trained to fly these complicated birds ? I ask because of the talk on here about always having two people in the cockpit rules. Seems to me if the 3rd person doesn't know how to fly the plane it has limited usefulness. I feel very sorry for the lives lost in this tradgedy and hope a solution can be found.

[ErVikingo]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

I'm curious other than the pilot/co-pilot is anyone else on the flight crew trained to fly these complicated birds ? I ask because of the talk on here about always having two people in the cockpit rules. Seems to me if the 3rd person doesn't know how to fly the plane it has limited usefulness. I feel very sorry for the lives lost in this tradgedy and hope a solution can be found.

Perhaps not with the ability to fly but at a minimum to apply swift deadly force as needed. I am a very frequent flyer (over 100k miles on average during the past 26 years). This makes me very afraid. Hope there are no copy cats...

[pavulon]

Originally Posted by 911_Dude

This is not good for the industry at all. I know that in the US pilots are allowed to be medically treated for depression and still retain their license. I never thought that was a good idea.

I understand what you're saying here but I'd bet the real prevalence of mental health issues amongst pilots is higher than the general population. Remarkable responsibility, long, difficult hours, separation from family, low pay (for many) multiplied by time--->STRESS.

So, your concern over getting treatment would force pilots with trouble farther underground. It's a really tough spot for everyone.

[Baz]

From what I understand - the co-pilot was Muslim - and we will at some point hear how that influenced this cowardly act.

[red-beard]

Baz, do you have a link to an article?

[Baz]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Baz, do you have a link to an article?

No - this came from some jihad blogs in Germany and is not 'official' yet.

[oldE]

Originally Posted by Baz

No - this came from some jihad blogs in Germany and is not 'official' yet.

Or it is likely they are 'blowing smoke'.

Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz 'hid existing illness' from Germanwings - World - CBC News

"German prosecutors say they have found evidence that the co-pilot of the Germanwings plane that crashed in the French Alps appears to have hidden evidence of an illness from his employers.

Prosecutors in the western city of Duesseldorf say they seized medical documents from the home of Andreas Lubitz, 27, that indicate "an existing illness and appropriate medical treatment."
Lubitz house

Prosecutor Ralf Herrenbrueck said in a statement Friday that torn-up sick notes were found, including one for the day of the crash, to "support the current preliminary assessment that the deceased hid his illness from his employer and colleagues."


Best
Les

[Crowbob]

Considering the 'climate' in Germany I would expect the German government to be very, very careful about bringing jihad into this mix.

[widgeon13]

I'm thinking this will be check into thoroughly before anything goes public. (either that or completely swept under the rug).

Originally Posted by Baz

From what I understand - the co-pilot was Muslim - and we will at some point hear how that influenced this cowardly act.

[oldE]

Originally Posted by ckissick

Why is it possible to set the auto pilot to an elevation of 100 feet when the ground below you is at a higher elevation? It seems like it should be able to adjust to avoid a crash. Of course, the pilot could have just switched to manual. Still...

Charlie,

I'm not a pilot, but here's an example. Glasgow airport. If you are approaching from the north, you are coming in over hills. If you wish to use the automated flight controls, you would enter the numbers you are seeking (altitude and heading ) while you are over the hills and proceeding on another heading. The aircraft does not instantaneously take you from your current altitude to the one you select, there is a descent rate which can be input or defaulted. By the time it reaches the newly set altitude, you are in the Clyde Valley.

A few months ago, someone posted a link to a uTube video which shows the pilot of a Lufthansa A380 entering the altitudes and headings in response to the tower's instructions. It is worth a watch.

Best
Les

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by ckissick

Why is it possible to set the auto pilot to an elevation of 100 feet when the ground below you is at a higher elevation? It seems like it should be able to adjust to avoid a crash. Of course, the pilot could have just switched to manual. Still...

Simple. The Ground Proximity Warning System only alerts when terrain is a threat. The pilot still has to intervene. In this case the autopilot could have been set to Level Change (for climbs or descents, descent in this case) with 100 feet dialed into the Altitude Select window and the airplane will obediently seek 100 feet of altitude while the GPWS sounds aural alerts all the way in. The pilot may also hand-fly and achieve the same results. There is no intervention by the autopilot for terrain or TCAS (other airplanes) alerts, the pilot has to intervene.

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by rfuerst911sc

I'm curious other than the pilot/co-pilot is anyone else on the flight crew trained to fly these complicated birds ? I ask because of the talk on here about always having two people in the cockpit rules. Seems to me if the 3rd person doesn't know how to fly the plane it has limited usefulness. I feel very sorry for the lives lost in this tradgedy and hope a solution can be found.

It does baffle me that the Europeans do not have a crewmember enter the flight deck when one of the pilots goes back to take a leak. We do that here in the US post 9/11. It's not because the pilot may be suicidal, it's because someone has to look out through the peep-hole and see if the other stews or the peeing pilot is not being held by a terrorist. If all looks well then the stew opens the door and the other pilot comes back in. They'll implement this procedure now.

If there had been a stew in the Germanwings flight deck when Depressed Copilot was flying (and the captain was pissing) the copilot may not have tried to take the jet down. As soon as the captain pounds on the door she opens it and he comes back in and averts disaster.

This is how aviation becomes safer by increments. Kill 200 people and THEN implement a new rule or safety measure. The only way to get a STOP sign put up in front of the park where little kids play is to have one or more little kid get killed by a speeding car. THEN the sign goes up.

"Tombstone regulation" is what it's cynically called by aviation accident investigators.

[ted]

turning military and commercial aircraft into drones is sounding better...
they just need to make the technology more affordable than the pilots.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

That'll be great until Chinese hackers crack a few of them.

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by 911_Dude

In a couple of weeks we will know everything there is to know about this co-pilot. What an incredibly selfish way to take your life. And to take with him over a hundred people that trusted him to get them to their next stop.

This is not good for the industry at all. I know that in the US pilots are allowed to be medically treated for depression and still retain their license. I never thought that was a good idea.

Pay is a factor here too. I maintain that you would not see a 150K-250K Delta pilot do this. Besides, the Delta (or any major carrier worth a damn) hiring captains would spot this looney in the interview. Yes, Delta (et al) pilots, red-blooded American citizens, have it very good and are the best of the best. Low-cost budget carriers (and fly-by-night cheap cargo carriers) attract the guys who cannot get hired by the higher paying carriers. The fuc*ups and the losers with problematic training and flight histories wind up at the lower end of the pay scale.

[gordner]

Pay in aviation sucks period. Most pilot's see a huge salary reduction moving to an airline, as they were likely senior in a commuter type operation making decent coin as a smaller aircraft captain, then they move right seat on an airliner and drop %50 of their salary in the move.
The 150-200 K you think Delta pilots make is the top of the scale and is rarified atmosphere up there, not too many guys are in that area.
It would be nice to think an American carrier would do it better, but cost drives everything in aviation. This could easily occur on an American carrier just as it can on international carriers.
The lower end of the pay scale is not for losers and F ups, it is for the low time pilots on the way up. Hours are everything for pilots, they are not really commercially insurable until they hit 2500 or so. The good ones learn everything they know getting those 2500 hours, not driving a bus at 38k feet into massive airport centers.
I seriously doubt this guy came across as a looney in his interview.....People do crazy things, and that is something you will never be able to "procedure" out of life.

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by ted

turning military and commercial aircraft into drones is sounding better...
they just need to make the technology more affordable than the pilots.

I was waiting for this.

So there you are sitting in First Class when the college intern--the cheap labor the airline hires in lieu of actually paying someone--walks onboard to program the flight computers. He slips the disc into the FMS and downloads the data. You see him having some problem getting it to take and then finally gets the data loaded. You ask the stew for another drink. Then the intern exits the flight deck and closes the flight deck door. He bids the A flight attendant (the one up front) farewell, steps into the jetway and closes the entry door with a firm thud. An automated voice comes on (cheaper than a real voice) and does the safety announcement. And as you taxi to the runway the FMS computer discovers a glitch and the jet stops. And you wait while the intern, sitting in a small office in the office area of the terminal, reboots the FMS. He then hits "resume" and the jet continues taxi for takeoff.

Feeling like you saved some bucks huh? Smart you! How's that free drink? Your mouth is dry? How come, you saved all that money flying on the no-pilots airline.

Oh, by the way, the airline suits won't "pass along the savings" when they are finally able to get rid of all their costly troublesome labor. You'll still pay all the money they can get from you to go to Las Vegas.

The simple solutions always seem so darn simple. If we could just ____________ the world would be a much better place.

Keep this in mind too. Corporate jets will NEVER have automated "drone" flight decks. The suits know damn well they want real pros up front, guys who know WTF they're doing and who won't screw up and kill them. It's YOU the traveling public who will get drone air travel. Cheaper.

[BE911SC]