Should there be tighter restrictions on what can be purchased using food stamps?

[GH85Carrera]

Originally Posted by jyl

I would like to propose an experiment that we on this thread could do.

You can do it in real life, or you can do it as a thought experiment - but in the latter case, actually go to the store and use reality-based foods, prices, quantities, please.

The experiment is to feed your household on $142/month or $33/week.

That is the approximate monthly spending on food by the bottom 10% of households by income., as estimated from the sources below.
- Percent of household income spent on food/housing, by income decile
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-06/americas-poor-spend-60-their-income-food-housing-proving-cpi-meaningless
- Interactive site - enter household income and see the decline you are in, by state
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?_r=0

Interestingly, $140 is also the average SNAP (supplemental nutrition) monthly benefit - i.e. EBT "food stamps" - paid in Oregon.

Don't cheat. Cheating is using oils, staples, spices, etc from your pantry/freezer (everything has to be bought on $33/week), using unusual cooking tools (no sous vide cooker - you have a couple burners, some pots, maybe an oven, maybe only a toaster oven), spending impractical amounts of time food shopping and preparing meals (say max 2 hours/day), buying foods in bulk (no $300 CostCo trips), buying foods only available at distant places (anywhere you can't regularly get to on the city bus, or on foot), or using advanced foodie-type cooking knowledge.

Let's see what we come up with.

Shortly after I purchased my house I was so broke my food budget was way under that much. One big difference is I was smart enough to know I could not afford to have kids at all. At that time I was too broke to afford to date. I ate lots of rice and potatoes and very little beef. I made a choice, no kids they are too expensive.

If ya can't feed them, don't breed them!

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by widebody911

This concept is foreign to me, as I did not grow up in a foodocracy. When food was put on the table, you ate it. You didn't get up from the table until you did so. There was no debate, no bargaining, no quid pro quo. You couldn't play the "I'm not hungry" card and walking away. None of this "if you eat your green beans you can have some candy" bull5hit.

Same here.

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

...Letting kids get what they want does not lead to good decision making. It makes kids feel entitled.

Agreed...and I have raised children. To adulthood. I guess if you have not (and still have young children), you really couldn't possibly know anything about the topic. It is like being an auto mechanic with a car that is too new to know if his maintenance skills were effective.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Your parent of the year award is in the mail. Did your kids at least get real school lunches and PE?

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by sand_man

Living on basically $1.50 per day...

I spend more than that on gas to get to the liquor store. Obviously we need more convenient liquor stores.

Seriously, it's been many years since I had to live hand to mouth. I do recall when my son was young that I kind of liked the challenge of making do with less. We mixed powdered milk with the real thing to make a decent tasting milk that cost less than the liquid stuff. We also shared each gallon of milk with a neighbor who was in similar straights. A half gallon cost about 75% as much as a gallon, but a gallon would go bad before we used it all, so we would go halvsies on a gallon. Concentrated orange juice got mixed with 4 cans of water, not three. My son and I baked bread together on Sunday mornings for a couple of years. That may have saved only a little money, but it was a great experience.

[strupgolf]

Originally Posted by fintstone

perspective is important. Perhaps the other lady was my mother who did not get assistance, did not buy chips or pop and did not have a birthday party for her child because she did not earn enough money...and certainly would not have be able to justify using other people's money to have one.

+1

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

I KNEW that was coming, thanks Matt, you didn't disappoint.

I have some ideas but I know what I won't do. I like how we were raised though I probably won't pass along the extreme work ethic that we were taught.

I can only answer on a case by case basis here as I'm not sure I can put a cogent philosophy down right this moment. But in general, I like a foundation of discipline, structure and boundaries on which you can base everything else. I appreciate greatly that when my parents made a decision, that was it. Resolve is a good thing.

I have interviewed, hired and fired a lot of millennials recently. I've never seen such a poor crop of people who are whiny, self-absorbed and need constant reinforcement even though they have absolutely no skills. They are the fruit of parents wanting to be friends with their kids. I think letting children get what they want inspires an entitlement mentality where they can't adapt to things that don't go their way.

I'm a big fan of discipline.

Shaun, before I had kids I was that guy in the supermarket, store, restaurant, looking at the kid pitching a fit who said, "MY kids will NEVER act like that, I won't allow it. I'll teach them discipline"

Then I had kids and quickly learned, it ain't all in your control.

They are sentient beings with their own unique personalities and sometimes there just ain't **** you can do about it.

My kids are good kids. So far, knock wood, they have been no trouble and are really awesome.

Far better than my brother and I were which is one of the reasons I was petrified at the thought of having kids. If they were half the "independent free thinkers" my brother and I were I would have had two choices, kill them or off myself.

My brother and I were raised by an old world Southern career military father who was no stranger to discipline. Didn't make a difference. We just learned how to not get caught doing stuff we should not have been doing.

My neighbor down the street is very strict with his kids and they are the terrors of the block. The guy is a control freak which has caused his kids "normal" to evolve way outside of what you and I would consider normal. They have effectively become immune to discipline because their normal is a perpetual state of discipline.

We make one meal for dinner in my house. We eat at the table together every night. You eat what is put before you. But we also involve them in the meal. Sometimes they get a choice an what we will eat, sometimes not.

Sometimes we make concessions on parts of the meal.

Conner loves raw vegetables, carrots are his favorite. He will sit and snack on a bag of raw baby carrots before anything else. But he won't eat them cooked. Hates them cooked. So when we make a meal that calls for cooked carrots he gets raw on his plate.

We pick our battles because some are not worth winning.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Are you a bot or just another Randy alias?

Regardless, your point is correct. The processed garbage that is passed off as "food" these days is cheaper than genuine food with nutritional value. The poorest people buy a disproportionately high percentage of the junk and predictably have lots of health issues as a result. Why do you think there is such a push for "free"* healthcare largely to benefit these sorts of individuals?

The processed food / fast food / agribusiness industry in this country is largely responsible for the healthcare mess we're in.

Heaven knows we could all eat better (me included) but I try to buy as much as I can from local growers, farm stands, get organic products were possible, cut out processed stuff, etc. I've also been vegetarian for almost 25 years, which definitely helps. It'd be great to see the industries that profiteer off of things like factory farming practices, over-processing, misrepresentation of nutritional content, etc. start getting whacked for it. I get the distinct sense that the FDA doesn't do jack and is way too cozy with these industries.

[dheinz]

Ad at the bottom of this page of this thread...

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How ironic...

[PorscheGAL]

We often talk about junk being cheaper than nutritional food but I am not so sure that is the case all the time. A couple of examples:

Here a bag of potato chips can cost almost $4. That gets you 8-1oz servings (of course who eats just 1 oz) or I can buy a 5lb bag of potatoes for the same price.

If I want a snack: Choose between a very large bag of baby carrots vs. oreos. Calorie wise I can choose a cup of carrots with a tbsp of dressing or 2 oreos. The carrots will fill you up but the oreos, who has ever only eaten 2?

A common diet suggestion is to only shop the outside walls of a grocery store (avoid the aisles). If you want to limit what food stamps are used for, this may be a good way. I'm just not so sure that is a realistic possibility.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

I've never been that guy. What kids do out and about starts at home, but kids are kids. And kids pitch fits. Kids have on switches that can be easily turned but but the off switch can be hard to find and they are unpredictable especially outside the home. I don't think discipline is a deciding factor in this scenario especially considering the emotional nature of kids and all the outside influences of being in public that are out of your control.

What's in your control? What they eat. Here's where you get to set a pattern of good eating habits that become natural to your child, part of who they are. So a child that has consistent, good eating habits while growing up will make good choices as they older. The secondary benefit of discipline in such a basic construct as healthy eating is your child learns discipline. That's much of my point. Letting your kids eat what they want teaches them to be self-absorbed, whiny and entitled.

Kids need boundaries, they don't need parents as friends.

I am not surprised your kids are good kids. I wouldn't expect anything less.

The scenarios you paint are 1-D. Discipline, in and of itself, isn't the deciding factor. It's part of a foundation. The over the top dad has other issues at work. Your own experience I understand. My older brother was pretty hyper as kid. He got the belt plenty. My takeaway wasn't to figure out how to not get caught, it was just to be good. Worked well. And growing up in the country of CT where you couldn't see your nearest neighbor, there was so much to do that was "good," I never understand the temptation of being bad. Another thread.

I think the carrot scenario is a good solution. There's plenty of grey in discipline.

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Shaun, before I had kids I was that guy in the supermarket, store, restaurant, looking at the kid pitching a fit who said, "MY kids will NEVER act like that, I won't allow it. I'll teach them discipline"

Then I had kids and quickly learned, it ain't all in your control.

They are sentient beings with their own unique personalities and sometimes there just ain't **** you can do about it.

My kids are good kids. So far, knock wood, they have been no trouble and are really awesome.

Far better than my brother and I were which is one of the reasons I was petrified at the thought of having kids. If they were half the "independent free thinkers" my brother and I were I would have had two choices, kill them or off myself.

My brother and I were raised by an old world Southern career military father who was no stranger to discipline. Didn't make a difference. We just learned how to not get caught doing stuff we should not have been doing.

My neighbor down the street is very strict with his kids and they are the terrors of the block. The guy is a control freak which has caused his kids "normal" to evolve way outside of what you and I would consider normal. They have effectively become immune to discipline because their normal is a perpetual state of discipline.

We make one meal for dinner in my house. We eat at the table together every night. You eat what is put before you. But we also involve them in the meal. Sometimes they get a choice an what we will eat, sometimes not.

Sometimes we make concessions on parts of the meal.

Conner loves raw vegetables, carrots are his favorite. He will sit and snack on a bag of raw baby carrots before anything else. But he won't eat them cooked. Hates them cooked. So when we make a meal that calls for cooked carrots he gets raw on his plate.

We pick our battles because some are not worth winning.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Some of what's said above is true in my own observations. Kids do tend to do better with boundaries established - my take is to have few, firm boundaries and once established, to not compromise on them. Within those, I let the kids be kids and explore / do pretty much as they want to. They grow up too damn fast as it is and are exposed to too much adult material / issues too early in our society anyway - I'm certainly not going to stifle their having an actual childhood by being overbearing or imposing too many restrictions but a few are certainly necessary and are inviolable. There are severe consequences for violations (taking away privileges, etc.) every single time. They learn quickly where the ropes are and it's working out pretty well.

The best thing I find you can do as a parent is lead by example. Kids emulate. That's how they seem to learn - copy, observe outcomes (compare to observed / predictable outcomes observed in parents / siblings / teachers / others) and then make minor adjustments and see what changes. Parenting should be a motivator for people to eat better, behave better and do things that are better for them but largely they seem not to. It's sad. Kids are always watching and observing even when you think they're not. Be a role model and be what you want them to run into.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

This guy definitely got to eat what he wanted.

"Legendary" auto technician seeks 40k to jumpstart life!

[yazhound]

And should be tied to:

1) doing community service/work...say like paving roads that are not yet paved in the local county etc... a few days per week

2) looking for work the other days... (#1 should give them incentive to find work)

a) should person fail to do #1 and #2 they lose the FS

3) Once on FS you do not get more should you have more kids.... grandfather others but those new to foodstamps do not get increase because increase family size

[campbellcj]

Originally Posted by dennis in se pa

I know that all you have to do is show up in California and you can get $200 a month in food stamps.

What they don't tell ya is that $200 gets you around 4 days worth of food around here.

[SiberianDVM]

9,000 Drop Food Stamps After Maine Begins Work Requirements | CNS News