RGruppe; Atitude; or not

[ted]

- 993 (the grand-daddy of all the “tweaks”) powerplants.
nice choice but I be more inclined to call this motor daddy.

350hp 3.5 slidevalve. Sure it's gonna be 25k so the 993 swap around 10k is looking pretty good to most of us.

[Matt Smith]

Ouch!!
Hello Daddy.

Those tail lights just look plain mean.
Baudinet, if you're reading this, I think it's time to find some sky scraping induction trumpets for the '69.

[cegerer]

Beyond the aesthetic preference for 'early cars' by many enthusiasts, there is plenty of justification for pre-1974 911's being thought of in a different light from the rest of the line. In fact, the entire musclecar era died a sudden death in 1973 due to increasing government mandates on smog and safety equipment - no more Hemi-Cudas; no more LS-6 SS Chevelles, no more 428 Mustangs; and no more 911S's! Sure, the manufacturers tried to cash in on the legendary names with their 'badge-engineering' in the post-73 era, but it was a joke. These new regulations were drastic and unlike any other in automotive history.

At Porsche around the same time, there were huge managerial changes and the company went from a family-owned cottage-industry-like organization to a full-fledged corporation under the watchful eye of the beancounters. Further, the market dictated that cars in the price-range of a Porsche should have all the amenities of other luxury cars. So most 911's were now ordered with (or came standard with) power windows and locks, air conditioning, sunroofs, plush carpeting, etc. etc. Together with the safety/smog equipment, weight increased and the 'feel' of the pre-74 911's was lost forever.

It really was a unique era in automotive history. And not just for Porsche. Just one man's opinion. -- Curt

P.S. - can you imagine some of the performance machinery that would have been available had our pointy-headed politicians not peed in our punch bowl in 73???!!! And don't forget to vote tommorow - who knows what other brilliant ideas they can up with for the auto industry!

[john_colasante]

Curt,

You need to look at some production cars that Porsche mass produced since '73. While I'm very fond of the early sport models these later RS's leave nothing on the table.

'73 911 RS. Weight 2370 lbs, power 210 bhp. Power/weight - .088

'91 911 RS. Weight 2690 lbs, power 260 bhp. Power/weight - .100

'95 911 RS. Weight 2800 lbs, power 300 bhp. Power/weight - .107

So you see Porsche has been making more aggressive sport models as time goes on. All of them have been true to the original RS creedo, and in fact may have surpassed the original RS's rawness. Again, we all love the 2.7 RS but we need to look at some of the more modern sport models and see the reality of what Porsche has been doing.

[RSupdate]

Originally posted by ted
JR I have a serious admission to make.
I bought a bi level wing for high speed track events only.
I do prefer the duck tail nostalgic look.
R Grp and bi level wings, not a good combination.

Quote -964 Retractable tails and bigger
This could be seriously damaging to R Grp’s image!
R Grp needs to hire an image consultant if this represents public perception!

No sweat MG, I'm gonna bet you'll get real good at swapping the tails back & forth....

[cegerer]

John,

There's no doubt that Porsche (and many other manufacturers) produced cars post-73 that can 'out-perform' a 73 2.7RS. I'm not arguing that. I'm only making the case for the unique era in which the 65-73 911's were produced and why they are special in some enthusiast's minds. -- Curt

[Soterik]

The later RS's left nothing on the table all right....they ate it all!

91'....2,690 lbs
95'....2,800 lbs

The 911R concept was in the other direction......pounds wise at least.....what's that old saying "objects in motion"?....I don't think you would hardly apply the term "tossable" to anything post 73'.

RGruppe thoughts...


"you either get it....or you don't".....quote from the Gruppemeisters...

Yeah this was a touch beligerent from me...but this topic is close to me heart....

regards,
Eric
67 911S (2,270 lbs with 240 hp 2.7RS twin plug on aluminum case)

[RSupdate]

Oh boy Eric........

Get ready for the feedback on that !!!!!

[tabs52]

The R Gruppe won't let me in...................

PS Go check out my comments under Porsche Enthusiast in the Off Topic Board.

[Rot 911]

Originally posted by tabs52
The R Gruppe won't let me in...................

I see that as a mark in RGruppes favor!

[john_colasante]

Argh. You're mocking me into this.

Eric,

Your attitude represents the part of the RGruppe crowd that needs a better understanding of sports purpose 911's.

It's not about simple performance. It's about rawness and lightweight and power to weight and sacrificing creature comforts and stiff suspension and high revs and noises transmitting into the cabin and tossing the car and catching it and being race-bred and driving it like you're one of the few who knows how.

The character of the later RS models does live up to these principles. Note the RS America does not.

That's the part that many RGruppies "don't get". I think alot do, but many who are brainwashed into thinking that this magic ended in '73.

[Randy W]

John, (Orbmedia) still winning friends and influencing people I see.

A lighter car can brake faster and corner faster, no matter what the power to weight ratio is - hey, I think I get it!

[Soterik]

Sigh.....

Apples and oranges....

No, I don't need a better understanding...I'm perfectly comfortable with Sports Purpose 911's of the era that the "clubs" that I want to be part of pertain to.....EARLY 911's....isn't that what we are talking about????

If I buy a later 911SC/Carrera/993 then I may look into, or be concerned about the later cars....but till then.....

My attitude about my cars is just fine thankyou.....

I'm glad you enjoy your cars (really!).....good for you!

And why "should" an RGruppe member care?

And I am, by the way, multi model oriented.....I just choose earlier rather than later.

regards,
Eric
56 Speedster
59 A coupe
63 Coupe
67 911S w 2.7
67 911S stock (so far....)
69 911S w 2.7
71 911E stock

[tabs52]

If U don't have to roll the window down with a crank, it's not a Sports car anymore.......It has morphed into something different. It has changed it's purpose.......it is nolonger what it orginally set out to be. Tastes change over time as well as perceptions about how things are to be used. Things in the long run tend to be cyclical and more or less return to where they started from.

[Jack Olsen]

Nobody in the R Gruppe sneered at my power windows, either.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by JackOlsen
Nobody in the R Gruppe sneered at my power windows, either.

yeah, but that's because you swapped the original 2.2amp window motor for a 3.6amp VarioCrank monster.

[surflvr911sc]

Since this thread obviously has the RGruppe’s attention, how many of you SO. CA RGruppe guys are planning to join us for Big Bear Run II on the 17th?

P.S. Nostatic is looking for driving lessons and I could use a some myself. Any takers?

[john_colasante]

Later RS models have wind-up windows.

Listen, it's clear you guys don't know much about 911's made after '73 and for some reason don't have any interest in exploring this world. And that's fine. But as a result you poo-poo the whole lot which makes you seem stubborn and single-minded. If you're happy with that then fine we can go our separate ways. I won't offend you by seeming like I'm trying to teach you something.

And your experience with actually driving later sports purpose 911's is limited, so again you poo-poo the whole lot as being heavy and unresponsive without even understanding that these later RS cars are faster out of most corners for more reasons than just lightweight can explain.


I think this is a silly debate I've gotten involved in anyway. I love early 911's more than you.

[Matt Smith]

The aesthetic preference that Curt briefly alluded to is, I guess, equally as important as power to weight ratios. They just look cool. Simple.

[Kevin G.]

... I know why they are the best - I own one.

That in itself is reason enough for me.

I have driven an SC, and I have driven an 87 Carrera. They are both great cars, both have more power and potentially response. Potentially - because they didn't belong to me and I didn't drive them like I stole them.

They just don't feel the same, I like mine better. I may not have the horsepower and refinements of my younger brethern, but my car has plenty of horsepower to satisfy my limited driving abilities at this time. Once I become a better driver, I dream of transplanting a later model motor (and suspension changes, and...) but that's a ways down the road yet.

On R Gruppe attitude...

The attitude of an RGruppe car is something I can really aspire to, to me these cars are the ultimate. Fun, exciting, stimulating in their modifications and vibrancy. Someday, my car will be fit to assemble with these extraordinary examples of mechanical art.

OTOH, to date I have met with two bonafide RGruppe members, with results on both that have convinced me that ordinary enthusiasts are better off with them huddling together on their own. I realize that my limited exposure results in too small a population to reach a proper conclusion, and that MY attitude is probably off base from the help provided to this forum by other RGruppers with knowledge they freely share. However life is too short and there are too many roads to drive to waste time in the company the few whose s**t doesn't stink.