RGruppe; Atitude; or not

[ted]

The early 911 AX racers held their own a month ago at the San Diego AX. Jim's RSA is awesome too, I like them all.


http://www.pcasd.org/autocross/Ax2002/results020907.shtml
September 7, 2002 Autocross Results

Top 10 Times of the Day

Time Driver------------------------Car
68.88 Grosekemper, Steve---1974 914
69.66 Schmidt, Roland---------1981 911
70.77 Gagen, Mike--------------1969 911
71.72 Wise, Lewis---------------1973 911 T
71.88 Andrews, Dan-------------1973 911 T
72.36 Tweed, Tom----------------1973 911 E
72.78 Ehrman, Bob----------------1985 911
72.97 Clements, Kary-------------1997 993
73.11 Duncan, Jad------------------1988 944 Turbo
73.27 Binford, Jim-------------------1993 911 RSA

[dickster]

i just knew this thread would still be running when i got up this morning.............

SCWDP guys generaly follow the same lines as the R-Gruppe guys, but appear to use their P-car as a daily driver. They just can't go as HP wild because of smog regulations.

OH, PPPPLLLLLEEEAAAAAASSSSEEEEEEE!!!!

whats with the argument going on about rgruppe not appreciating newer cars - THEY HAVE THEM AMONG THEM (apparently)!!!

It's not about simple performance. It's about rawness and lightweight and power to weight and sacrificing creature comforts and stiff suspension and high revs and noises transmitting into the cabin

my '86 isn't exactly the most refined car i've ever driven

[ted]

Hi Dr Island I would counter your R Gruppe perception with some big power reality. It gets much more hard core than your version.

Originally posted by island911

The R-Gruppe cars:
-SC Aluminum trailing arms
-964 Retractable tails and bigger
-930 & 993 brakes
-Carbon-fiber body panels (because they’re light . . .not rust)
-SC flairs
-930 & 951 Fuchs,
-twinturbo sportseats.
-935/Ruf aero mirrors
- 993 (the grand-daddy of all the “tweaks”) powerplants.
-Put all of this into an early shell, sprinkle with chant “we have no attitude,” and now you are ready to stake claim to the superior merits belonging to an exclusively “early 911” gruppe.

[/B]

Here's the specs on the red 69 I posted before.
Sorry guess this fella opted for the SC flare delete.

Specs:

chassis: 1969 911/912

horsepower: Aprox. 360 hp

acceleration: 0-60 in Aprox. 3.8 secs

weight: 1800 lbs. dry

body: Carbon Fiber and Aluminum

brakes: Factory 930 (front and rear)

springs: Factory RSR Coil Over

wheels: 911R

Engine:

RSR Configuration, 3.5 liter84 Carrera block, factory 935 twin plug distributor, Andial slide valve injection, factory 906/910 cams, RSR lightweight flywheel, Factory RSR clutch pressure plate disc, 914/6 lightweight valve covers, Solid Aluminum motor mounts, RSR style headers, factory sports muffler with enlarged outlets.

Body:

Lexan windows, carbon fiber 911R doors, lightweight epoxy 935 door handles, carbon hood, carbon 911R bumper, 911R engine lid hinges, 911R tailight assembly, RSR front hood straps, factory RS plastic fuel tank, 944 rear wiper motor for front windshield, front air scoop block off, lightweight engine grille, 911R master electric cut-off switch.

Transmission:

Magnesium 915 case, Quafe limited slip diff, 7.31 ring and pinion, hill climb gears, factory oil sprinkler and pump, solid aluminum transmission mounts, AJR lightweight starter motor.

Suspension:

RSR coil over, Titanium rear springs, RSR shock mounts, 20 mm front sway bar, 19mm rear sway bar, 930 rear wheel spacers.

Interior:

Factory 935 Aluminum roll cage (enhanced), Sabek 5-point 2-inch safety belts, 10,000-rpm Tach, 300km speedo, VDO clock block off, 911R mirror, carbon dash, carbon sun visors, lightweight quarter windows, custom windshield retainers, Prototipo steering wheel, 911R style aluminum bilk head covers, factory short shift, camera mount, RS Seats



Hearing an in car video of the the trumpets wot is impressive.
Being chased and chasing it around Cambria back roads was thrilling.
Driving it would be awesome.

[island911]

From page one

Originally posted by ted
Pot stirrer.

From page two

Originally posted by ted
Doctor have you no patience?

Concur, let it go.

And posts in between.

Your post on the auto-x was great too. . . but someone needs to tell that Roland Schmidt guy (81SC) that it ended in 1973 and an SC is not *that* tossable. Boy; some people. . .they just don't "get it."

Ted - very cool mod'd 911. But have some perspective; even something as mundane as a top-fuel dragster produces 750 HP! . . .per cylinder!
We are all just finding our balance in what machine we have. I have enormous respect for the re-architeching which goes into the R-Gruppe cars and their new found balance. But it's not an "early 911" anymore! Touting it as such, is ridiculous.

This thread, and my point, was; the message the gruppe was sending out was hypocritical. . . and I was not the first to see this.

Can we call this done now?

EDIT: Sphelling

[ted]

Hey hope you didnt find my replies confrontational, just informative.

So here's one for the SC crowd to lust after.

Here's a pic of the SC, it's had some love R Gruppe style.
Wide body with 18" rims 3.6 non V/R and 930 brakes.

Too bad it's not smog exempt in CA.
Still it is an awesome SC.

[tabs52]

There isn't one R Gruppy that doesn't know who I am...I bin bangin heads wid dos Boyz for 2 years now........One of them who shall remain nameless even jested that he was going to bring his gun to Cambria from Orygun. My comment in return was coming by way of Stockton. They didn't seem to like that comment.

Now I am bangin heads wid everybody who has a Porsche thats post 1973. I personally think times changed and the P cars morphed into something other than ba!!s to the wall no frills Sports Cars. Now John your right I havn't followed everything Porsche has done and form time to time they come out with a model thats a throwback to the Good ole days. But honestly the greater part of their production has been more Pimped out Yuppie Mobile than Ba!!s to the wall no frills Sports Car. TIMES HAVE CHANGED, people want something different than no frills. (Until recently but are they really no frills, the Boxster has AC).

Another point which I have repeated so many times on another P Board that I can recite it in my sleep is that in late 60's early 70's to get a car that braked, handled and had performance one literally had to buy a European car. American cars didn't cut it. Today a Accura or Lexus will give U all those things with a warranty. So Porsche has to really be giving a customer something above and beyond to justify the price. Quite frankly for the extra juice your getting vs the price and USEABILITY of that performance it ain't cost effective. We do have speed laws in the USA and lawyers who love to sue insurance companies. But there still is the cachet of the Porsche name and Yuppies who are willing to part with the money for that name. Also an ancillary point is why screw around with a 30 year old sports car when the Accura will give so much with that warranty.

The answer for me is that the Early 911S's are Classic cars that can still be considered modern with regards to overall performance. I don't need to increase my HP or handling characteristics what a stock 911S has to offer is plenty good enough for me. But than again thats my opinion and I could be wrong but I'm not.

[Soterik]

Oh great......

So when do we descend into BBQ Pizza, Black Label Partages, PorK Chops and your favorite type of China?

?????

[J P Stein]

Originally posted by ted
The early 911 AX racers held their own a month ago at the San Diego AX. Jim's RSA is awesome too, I like them all.

September 7, 2002 Autocross Results

Top 10 Times of the Day

Time Driver------------------------Car
68.88 Grosekemper, Steve---1974 914

He,he..........

I'm a bit strange. I LIKE to read AX results and I'm a 914 snob.....there's an oxymoron. Looks like the early 9elebens did pretty well.

I don't know what the GruppeR boys do with those lovely cars, but I hope they do something other than canyon running/public road terrorizing.

IMO, if one is going to build a hot rod, one needs to take it out and beat the crap out of it (in a safe venue) to see if holds up. Otherwise, it's all show and no go.....the R word pops into mind here.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Soterik
So when do we descend...

No descent if there's no reply.

[curtisaa]

"are you implying that if we (Rgruppe) don't track our cars we are charletons""....if so, don't even go there pal.

[Paul_Heery]

What does JP know? He drives a NARP after all.

Oops...

[Randy W]

Boy, Glenn, you sure know how to stir a pot - of course you did get some help from RLJ, John, Tabs, and JP, among others (including myself I suppose).

Hypocritical is a pretty hard term when generalized to a group as large as the R Gruppe. The R Gruppe started with early 911s with sports purpose modifications in keeping with the times these cars were built (Cris' '69S and my '72S fit this model), later it morphed into a hot-rod direction and included transplants and carbon fiber cars as well (which my '72T/RS fits into). We also have members with essentially bone stock 911s.

As far as driving, we have several competitiion drivers among us, including vintage racers and driving instructors from various clubs. So, we are much broader based than many realize. When someone assumes in a post that none of us has driven the later cars, just because we prefer the early 911, they are making a mistake and appear foolish. I have leased a 2000 Boxster S since new and as an instructor have driven almost every model of 911 built - I just like the early 911 better.

[ted]

Originally posted by J P Stein


I'm a bit strange. I LIKE to read AX results and I'm a 914 snob.....

Here a pic of the wide body 914-6 version, Steve does tend to dominate the local AX events. Although soon we should see a 73 911 wide body 3.8 that might keep it interesting.

One for the 914 fans.



Agree, the track racing is a lot of fun! I think the R Gruppe guys would have a blast if they scheduled a day at the track sometime.
Maybe join a touring club event at Button Willow or Thunder Hill someday?

[tabs52]

Reply or not it doesn't matter....... you've allready made the descent.

[island911]

Originally posted by Randy W
Boy, Glenn, you sure know how to stir a pot - of course you did get some help from RLJ, John, Tabs, and JP, among others (including myself I suppose).

Hypocritical is a pretty hard term . ..
. .. just because we prefer the early 911, they are making a mistake and appear foolish. I have leased a 2000 Boxster S since new and as an instructor have driven almost every model of 911 built - I just like the early 911 better.

Okay, Randy; I wasn't going to touch this thread again, but for you I'm making the exception. Though it does seem YOU are just stiring the pot-o' hypocrisy, yourself with statements like "I just like the early 911 better"

C'mon, what is "early 911" about the vario-ram intake sitting on your white 911? -for example.
Sheese; hypocrisy is so thick you couldn't cut it with an R-Gruppe splitter.

I'll tell ya, I wish I didn't bring up any of this "RGruppe stuff" . .. especially now that you guys have the support of Tabs and Brian993!

[J P Stein]

Originally posted by ted


Here a pic of the wide body 914-6 version, Steve does tend to dominate the local AX events

Oh......now I get it. Steve brings a gun to a knife fight.

[CamB]

This post looked like too much work yesterday (back from a week's holiday and trying to decide what to read from 10 pages of posts...).

But today is another day and I am already bored again at work. So guess what - I have an opinion on this.

I've got a '69 and a '75. Both narrow body, one with what my mother would call "unfortunate looking" bumpers...

The major similarities are:

- they weigh about the same
- they look the same to 99% of the population
- they brake and handle similarly (before I messed with the '69)
- they are black
- they will rust if uncared for

The major differences are:

- the '69 sounds better
- the '69 looks better
- the '75 goes better (before I messed with the '69)
- the '75 has better (but less aesthetically pleasing to me) seats
- better gearbox in the '75
- much better brakes in the '75, but not relevant to what I'm getting at 'cause it is a '69T issue only
- power windows, sound deadening still in the car, blah blah blah - not relevant

So... the '69 is basically better only because it looks better (obviously opinion) and sounds better (no arguments please). And here is what I reckon R-Gruppe is about (this is neither entirely a compliment or a criticism)...

... basically the 65-73 cars look good and sound good, but only a select few actually go well ----> Porsche is the ultimate Mecano car, so you CAN mix and match parts to get the best of both worlds. And people do.

My '69 now has pretty much SC/Carrera mechanicals and suspension, except the induction which is more or less MFI. Lets not talk about the interior (grubby stock 69T). Although I don't think about it much, I effectively have a Carrera with (what I believe to be) a pretty nose and tail and no sound deadening. And a proper induction system.

So what have I accomplished? I now have a car which meets my aesthetic goals, which goes like stink, but most importantly, it is MY iteration of the 911. For me, the R-Gruppe gives the appearance of a collection of guys who have their own iterations of the 911 with a relatively common theme (ie early cars).

The fact that this form of 911 also coincides with arguably the greatest era of 911 motorsport competition gives those modifying them plenty of scope and guidance ---> in many ways motor-racing was pretty primitive back in the late 60s/early 70s and many of those specifications are achieveable for a road car today.

As a counter point the 935 doesn't offer much for an SC or Carrera owner!!

Rather like Todd in an earlier post, I'm running out of steam on this one. But I've figured out how to finish it. Either you get my post or you don't. I don't care - I forgot I was supposed to be working for 15 minutes

Matt - yeah, I should get a twin pipe sport muffler and some HUGE trumpets for scaring little children... I'd probably squeeze another 10hp too...

[Randy W]

Genn, I've always said I like the blue '72S better than the white '72T/RS -maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm alot of things, but I'm not a hypocrite...

[island911]

. . .R-Tue . . ..

Just Raz'n ya Randy.

[john_colasante]

[reconsidered and deleted snide remark that did not contribute anything useful]