Should minimum wage be: Higher? Lower? None?

[Don Ro]

Isn't this more or less pandering for an increased constituency?

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by Tidybuoy

Raising the lowest incomes to keep up is not the answer as it just keeps pushing prices up and service levels down. I believe that we need to reduce wages at the top and I would do that by limited the maximum tax deductions for payroll.

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Interesting idea. Limit expensible labor to salaries of less than $100 or $150k. But instead of putting more money in the consumer's hands, it puts more in the government's hands. How is that better? A major benefit of a higher minimum wage is that it increases consumer demand and the circulation of money.

I was thinking that if today a company pays the CEO $3 million cash salary and $7 million in stock, the company gets to deduct $10 million in expense. I have to wonder if the same company was only able to deduct $150k, would they still pay the CEO $10 mil in cash and stock? Would the company be able to afford the deluxe salary with the increased tax bill?

By the way, increasing an employee from $8.50 to $15 per hour also puts more in the governments hands in the form of income taxes and fica taxes.

[Tobra]

Who do you want to take money from, the top or the bottom? If you push it up from the bottom, by raising the minimum wage, you end up passively taking more from the bottom of the pile, in the form of inflation. Why not use the tax laws to get the big corporations to do what I am absolutely certain you would support, reduce executive reimbursement packages while increasing the tax on what they are being paid.

Originally Posted by jyl

With interest rates about as low as they can be, you have to wonder (or at least I wonder) where housing prices will go from here.

On the one hand, there is a distinct shortage of housing in many cities. In Portland, we have <2 months' inventory.

On the other hand, when mortgage rates went up last year, you saw an immediate cooling of the housing market, both prices and sales volume, even though the same shortage existed then.

If you saw what happened last year, why do you wonder what would happen?

There is a vacant Gottschalks across the street from my office. It used to be a JC Penney. That mall is dying though. There is a Macy's at the other end that owns their building, which is the only reason it is still there. I have walked over there at lunch mid week and had to really look for a clerk. That Macy's used to be a Weinstocks

[fintstone]

Why take money from US corporations or business at all for work accomplished in the US? Costs all get passed on to consumers anyways. Why not simplify things and eliminate corporate taxes and just get the taxes directly from consumers at income tax time?.

Better yet, Why not simplify it a bit further and just collect a federal sales tax. That would eliminate most of the IRS since states already have that mechanism in place...and everyone woul pay their fair share.

[Nostril Cheese]

I want some of Fint's drugs.

[Por_sha911]

Minimum wage is absolutely necessary unless we crack down on illegal immigration.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Nostril Cheese

I want some of Fint's drugs.

Says the tin man from the Wizard of Oz.

[Nostril Cheese]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Says the tin man from the Wizard of Oz.

Uh yeah, sure thing there, Mr. Rogers... LMAO

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by Nostril Cheese

I want some of Fint's drugs.

Go over to PARF. They are passing them out for free. Don't take too much though, as they will likely cause you to spew vomit.

[fintstone]

You guys just cannot have a discussion in OT without making personal attacks. It is like trying to have an adult conversation with children. What is wrong with you?

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Minimum wage is absolutely necessary unless we crack down on illegal immigration.

Definitely one big piece of the problem!

[rusnak]

^ You're saying that employers don't take out withholding for their non-citizen employees? Or that they pay them under the table? This is a little bit like using a dull instrument on delicate surgery.

[Por_sha911]

Without illegal immigration going strong, we would have a supply and demand system that forces employers to pay a decent wage to get good workers. There wouldn't be a need for a minimum wage because people would be paid what they are worth. The lowest quality (either no skills or slackers) would make less.
Illegal aliens undercut a law abiding citizen who has to pay taxes, SSI, car insurance, etc.

[rusnak]

^ Sorry but that's just absurd. We have a perfectly functioning supply and demand system, save for the ridiculous minimum wage, which prices entry level jobs out of existence.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by rusnak

I am all for higher consumer savings. I think a hiring tax credit for businesses might do it, but probably an investment credit would be better, for tangible assets. Put money into the hands of small businesses and they will spend it. Put money into the hands of the wealthy, and they will save it away. Force business to spend, and prices will go up in a nanosecond, draining the pockets of the working class.

I like a hiring tax credit for low wage labor better than a minimum wage. It encourages more hiring. In a consumer economy like ours, we need somehow to get money into the hands of large numbers of consumers if the economy is going to grow.

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Without illegal immigration going strong, we would have a supply and demand system that forces employers to pay a decent wage to get good workers. There wouldn't be a need for a minimum wage because people would be paid what they are worth. The lowest quality (either no skills or slackers) would make less.
Illegal aliens undercut a law abiding citizen who has to pay taxes, SSI, car insurance, etc.

Well said!
This follows the same idea as buying cheap merchandise from China because their wages are low. In this case, products and more likely, services, are being purchased inside our own borders at low rates from illegals. Granted, some of them have regular jobs and pay taxes, but there is also a sub-economy going on and law abiding companies cannot compete when they are forced to pay a higher wage.

[jyl]

Wait a minute. So, restaurant A who pays its waitresses minimum wage is forced out of business because restaurant B across the street is staffed with illegal alien waitresses making $4/hour?. Like, the customers don't notice that the waitresses in restaurant B can't speak English and don't know the wine list? Or are you saying that the WalMart Superstore that is forced to pay minimum wage is struggling to compete with that little shop down the street staffed with illegal alien clerks, because the little shop can underprice poor Wal-Mart?.

Quote de Por_sha911

Without illegal immigration going strong, we would have a supply and demand system that forces employers to pay a decent wage to get good workers. There wouldn't be a need for a minimum wage because people would be paid what they are worth. The lowest quality (either no skills or slackers) would make less.

Illegal aliens undercut a law abiding citizen who has to pay taxes, SSI, car insurance, etc.

Well said!

This follows the same idea as buying cheap merchandise from China because their wages are low. In this case, products and more likely, services, are being purchased inside our own borders at low rates from illegals. Granted, some of them have regular jobs and pay taxes, but there is also a sub-economy going on and law abiding companies cannot compete when they are forced to pay a higher wage.

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by jyl

Wait a minute. So, restaurant A who pays its waitresses minimum wage is forced out of business because restaurant B across the street is staffed with illegal alien waitresses making $4/hour?. Like, the customers don't notice that the waitresses in restaurant B can't speak English and don't know the wine list? Or are you saying that the WalMart Superstore that is forced to pay minimum wage is struggling to compete with that little shop down the street staffed with illegal alien clerks, because the little shop can underprice poor Wal-Mart?.

Exactly! If both restaurants in your example sell tacos, the restaurant that sells a taco for $1.50 just might sell more taco's than the place across the street that sells the same for $4.50.

Just to make it simple for you....if both restaurants were the same, do you think there would be any advantage to the restaurant that gets free rent?

It's pretty well known that Wal Mart has put much competition out of business. How are they doing it? By selling for less. How do they sell for less? By buying merchandise from overseas where the labor is cheaper (the average Chinese factory worker makes 1/10th that of a US worker).

[rusnak]

I find the assertion that any but the most marginal business would fail to pay withholding and payroll tax and workman's comp. The risk alone could put you out of business in a very quick way.

[fintstone]

Lots of small business people/franchisees take that risk. I know of folks who run national chain stores and restaurants that have "private contractors" who come in an clean their carpets and grill hoods at night, mow their grass, pressure wash their building and sidewalks and unload their trucks. Clean their windows. These things used to be done by minimum wage employees...but it is much cheaper to contract out to someone who hires illegals. The same businesses also hire small, private firms to fix their plumbing, unload their trucks, etc. That doesn't even count the folks who work in the fields to grow and pick produce, those who work on meat packing plants, etc.

I used to go to a Waffle House that I found out that two of the employees on the night shift were paid in cash. Their books showed another employee worked those hours at a much higher rate. That employee got to keep a portion of the money whenever the cash employee worked. Most serving employees made about $4 per hour plus tips. Cooks made min wage...about $7hr. One employee was paid $12hr on the books and had some sort of assistant mgr title to make it seem legit. He also cooked and kept $9hr (of the $12) and when both he and the cash employee worked the same hours (first 6 hrs of the shift) and all $12hr the last 2-4 hours of the shift. For the 6 hrs per night that they both worked, the cash employee got free meals...one at the start and one at the end of the shift as well as $3hr (of the $12) in cash with no taxes or deductions for him or the franchise. The other employees did not know the deal and assumed the cash employee made what they did. Franchise knew, but if caught, would have pretended not to and let the asst mgr take the blame. They saved about $1 per hour for each of the min wage employees (cooks).