How To Save American Colleges

[tabs]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Community colleges are chronically ignored as well. You can get your prerequisite work done for 1/3 of the price, without any impact to your final degree.

WHAT!!!! You, you, you...mean I coulda gots my 4 year degree for $4000.00????? GD that University in CA by the Sea and Beach ripped me off....

[Nostril Cheese]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Community colleges are chronically ignored as well. You can get your prerequisite work done for 1/3 of the price, without any impact to your final degree.

This is how I did it. I have no student loan debt unlike many my age.

[HardDrive]

I have had similar thoughts, but I think the education racket is too strong. Not having a degree makes you ineligible for certain jobs, even though having a degree may not be an indicator of potential success in any way.

Originally Posted by M.D. Holloway

I'm starting to think that college is a myth. I have come in contact with several folks who do not have college degrees yet are experts in their respective fields and are commanding serious money.

While I know not everybody can be like them I am looking at the common threads that make them different. Seems like it's :
1) they really dig what they do
2) they have a passion to understand all aspects of it
3) they ask more questions than they answer
4) they are all good natured
5) money was never the motivation but money found them

I am sure there are other characteristics. Those are what stands out.

Btw - these folks could teach many professors a thing or two.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Nostril Cheese

Need to subscribe to read the article. Either way, the colleges have done a real great job convincing a generation there is no honor in being a carpenter or an electrician...

Your career options today with a 4 year degree are working for McDonalds or at a Jack In The Box being either a hamburger flipper or press the button cashier (production or sales). With a Grad degree you be manager of said establishment or the toilette room attendant.

My fking God Americans are so easily distracted by bright and shiny objects flashed in front of their faces. The prognosis for Americans is grim, corporations are doing fine. It is a slow accretion of problems of which no one is willing to address in a meaningful way. Americans sooner or later will get over the notion that they are special, endowed with attributes that automatically qualify them for material success.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by MRM

One of the points is that simply giving access to college doesn't do much good without some guidance of what to do with it. The upper classes have that guidance built into their support network. The lower classes don't, so the realistic access to meaningful college education explains more of the income gap than any other factor, times ten.

This, times 100

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

My son's brother dropped out of college after the first semester. He was a serious geek and got a job as a software engineer. That was in about 1985. You probably need a degree to get a job like that these days.

That's pretty much my story. I got lucky by being at the right place at the right time just before the IT took off as an industry. Back in the day, I was several parsecs ahead of my peers in this field with what I had learned in high school and a little bit of community college. I was working as a seasonal firefighter (USFS & CDF) in the summers, and doing odd computer jobs and classes in the winter and fortuitously got picked by a large company as a COBOL programmer (GET OFF MY LAWN!) at the end of a fire season and I never looked back. There's no way that would have worked out the same for me today.

[jyl]

Along those lines, this is worth a read

Education and class: America

Quote de MRM

One of the points is that simply giving access to college doesn't do much good without some guidance of what to do with it. The upper classes have that guidance built into their support network. The lower classes don't, so the realistic access to meaningful college education explains more of the income gap than any other factor, times ten.

This, times 100

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by jyl

Along those lines, this is worth a read

Education and class: America

Thanks. That was the biggest load of typical crybaby class warfare crap I've read in a while.

[strupgolf]

I will say, without a doubt, Mitch Daniels is one of the best people to come out of gov't to run a state, Indiana, or a school, Purdue, that you could ask for. It's sad he didn't run for a higher office because we would all be better off. He has a way to bring things down to everyday life to be understood by the masses. He's the "one that got away".

[jyl]

The Economist is a rather conservative magazine and one of the most thoughtful English language media sources on econcomic topics. Hardly a liberal rag.

Quote de jyl

Along those lines, this is worth a read



Education and class: America

Thanks. That was the biggest load of typical crybaby class warfare crap I've read in a while.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by jyl

The Economist is a rather conservative magazine and one of the most thoughtful English language media sources on econcomic topics. Hardly a liberal rag.

How does where an article is published affect the content of the article?

Crap is crap.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

schools , think tanks they are all business and pander to the hand that feeds them.
Take away the subsidies , you will see them hike the sails for a better horizon.
Until that time they will preach what the govt grant and free monies tell them to preach.
Simple

+1

[VaSteve]

Originally Posted by Nickshu

The only reason this reality has not hit campuses and the "culture" is that the government continues to subsidize a multitude of creative financing options for college education.

This. Nailed it.

Originally Posted by Nickshu

By and large the 4 year degree is no longer worth even a fraction of what it costs today. That said it' still a necessary evil. The key is to not pay $300K for a private university degree in underwater basketweaving when you are just as eligible to be accepted into a good graduate program coming from the local state or community institution.

Yup

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by Nickshu

This.

A 4 year degree from virtually anywhere today is meaningless. There are some exceptions to this such as engineering where you can actually use a 4 year degree but by an large without graduate studies most 4 year grads are unemployable without further education.

The only reason this reality has not hit campuses and the "culture" is that the government continues to subsidize a multitude of creative financing options for college education.

By and large the 4 year degree is no longer worth even a fraction of what it costs today. That said it' still a necessary evil. The key is to not pay $300K for a private university degree in underwater basketweaving when you are just as eligible to be accepted into a good graduate program coming from the local state or community institution.

Sadly that reality has not hit high school guidance counselors, who continue to preach that college is the ONLY route to success.

There are still degree paths that get you a good job with a bachelor's. Nursing, engineering, accounting, and finance are four that quickly jump to mind. But no longer will a bachelor's in general studies or business management earn you a good job. In many cases a tech school graduate will make better money. I know a number of people that coasted to a dead-end degree and have gone nowhere.

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

We put the money in years ago. Nice to know we are being screwed for taking personal responsibility. I don't think we qualify for a Roth. Too much income.

You don't have to qualify for a Roth, it's in your kids name under their own qualification. I make way too much to qualify for a Roth too, but have one in each of my kids' names that I contribute to for them. Water under the bridge for you now, but may help others.

[petrolhead611]

We have the identical problem in the UK. Many kids are now taking up apprenticeships again, including commercial ones( there is high demand for places) and learning on their job. They come out of it with a good job, a career , and no debt. My view today is that unless a degree leads to a well paid profession, eg Medicine, architecture, etc, dont bother going to university. Even accountants and lawyers can qualify in the UK by working as a trainee in a professional firm without the hideous expense of university, that is if they can get the very highly sought after traineeships.

[onewhippedpuppy]

The traineeships sound like a fantastic idea, I don't believe they are common here. In aerospace many of the best engineers that I have worked with are former aircraft mechanics who went back to school, I'd love to see an easier path for similarly talented individuals.

If one of my kids is interested in a licensed trade (plumbing, HVAC, electrician, etc) I won't discourage them. Demand is growing and a large percentage of the workforce is near retirement age. Licensing means that the illegal aliens won't take those jobs, and they can't outsource plumbing a house to India.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by petrolhead611

We have the identical problem in the UK. Many kids are now taking up apprenticeships again, including commercial ones( there is high demand for places) and learning on their job. They come out of it with a good job, a career , and no debt. My view today is that unless a degree leads to a well paid profession, eg Medicine, architecture, etc, dont bother going to university. Even accountants and lawyers can qualify in the UK by working as a trainee in a professional firm without the hideous expense of university, that is if they can get the very highly sought after traineeships.

The only down side to apprentice programs is that their training is locus specific and the broadness of their thinking remains narrow.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

The traineeships sound like a fantastic idea, I don't believe they are common here. In aerospace many of the best engineers that I have worked with are former aircraft mechanics who went back to school, I'd love to see an easier path for similarly talented individuals.

If one of my kids is interested in a licensed trade (plumbing, HVAC, electrician, etc) I won't discourage them. Demand is growing and a large percentage of the workforce is near retirement age. Licensing means that the illegal aliens won't take those jobs, and they can't outsource plumbing a house to India.

My Dad was a Tool & Die Maker for Packard before and during the Big One achieving his BS in Chemistry while working full time. After the war he never looked back eventually landing as an Aerospace Engineer in CA. His comments were that the new engineers lacked the practical hands on experience and relied on theory alone, which he felt didn't always lead to functionality.

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by tabs

My Dad was a Tool & Die Maker for Packard before and during the Big One achieving his BS in Chemistry while working full time. After the war he never looked back eventually landing as an Aerospace Engineer in CA. His comments were that the new engineers lacked the practical hands on experience and relied on theory alone, which he felt didn't always lead to functionality.

Same here Dad was a Mechanical engineer trained via apprenticeship back in the 60's starting as a mechanical draftsman/designer then his company put him thru college to get the degree in the 80's. Everyone who ever worked with him called him "the best" because he started with true hands on knowledge before getting his "education". When you know what you are learning already, then you learn a lot more the second time around.