Greeks lining up at ATMs

[Porsche-O-Phile]

The biggest tragedy of the Obama administration (and oddly the one most people don't seem to notice or care about) is the totally squandered opportunity to meaningfully reform our currency and banking system in wake of the once-in-a-hundred-years event that was the 2008 collapse / housing bubble implosion.

The people should have been marching on Washington DC with pitchforks demanding that our elected politicians get offa their asses and actually enact something substantial in wake of it, yet the window of opportunity passed with barely a peep. All we got was another do-nothing bureaucracy with little real power that will cozy up to the big banks, kiss their asses and at the end of the day, so whatever they want. Sickening. Even worse, we're still stuck with worthless fiat currency - clamors to return to a sound money standard were dismissed as "crazy" or "old fashioned". Nothing has changed other than now we have MORE debt, more devalued currency, more consolidation in the banking industry, more reliance upon the Fed and other central banks (power to the greediest!) and more instability. Complicating this we have the Baby Boomers retiring en masse with corresponding declines in tax receipts, increases in health care costs / profiteering and increasing demands on government reserves that aren't really there. This all adds up to a bleak picture going forward. While I doubt it'll go "boom" and implode it's possible - 2008 showed that it really is possible or even likely that our so-called "leaders" will live in total denial of reality and diddle about playing "kick the can" to the point things actually do go "boom" rather than actually paying attention, being responsible (or at least aware), thinking past the next election cycle or making sustainable fiscal policy a serious issue. I don't know which would be worse - a rapid "boom" type event a la 2008 or a more drawn-out period of steady decline. I wonder also which is more likely.

At some point people will get sick and tired of living the lie, the malaise and the blatant disregard of their well-being by those who have been charged with it, and real change will be demanded - likely at the barrel of guns. A new system will emerge (whether before or after a collapse is the big question), stability and prosperity will return for a while and eventually the cycle will repeat - those in charge will get power-drunk, playing games with peoples' futures and buying their short-term support with promises they can only keep by robbing from the future. Rinse, lather, repeat. I just wonder how long it will take to get to that point and what will happen in the interim. It might range anywhere from "inconvenient / unpleasant" (like the 1970s) to "bad" (2008-9 to today) to Great Depression / Greece / Zimbabwe / Weimar Republic type collapse. Nobody knows.

My biggest fear is that the economic stupidity and recklessness embraced and promoted by certain political agendas (usually leftist ones) will create one of these sorts of situations and leave us divided, enfeebled and vulnerable to exploitation by truly evil and manipulative interests like Islam / ISIS, despotic dictators / regional warlords, a communist totalitarian type system or some combination. Hold onto your guns. You may well need them in the days ahead.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

The biggest tragedy of the Obama administration (and oddly the one most people don't seem to notice or care about) is the totally squandered opportunity to meaningfully reform our currency and banking system in wake of the once-in-a-hundred-years event that was the 2008 collapse / housing bubble implosion.

The people should have been marching on Washington DC with pitchforks demanding that our elected politicians get offa their asses and actually enact something substantial in wake of it, yet the window of opportunity passed with barely a peep. All we got was another do-nothing bureaucracy with little real power that will cozy up to the big banks, kiss their asses and at the end of the day, so whatever they want. Sickening. Even worse, we're still stuck with worthless fiat currency - clamors to return to a sound money standard were dismissed as "crazy" or "old fashioned". Nothing has changed other than now we have MORE debt, more devalued currency, more consolidation in the banking industry, more reliance upon the Fed and other central banks (power to the greediest!) and more instability. Complicating this we have the Baby Boomers retiring en masse with corresponding declines in tax receipts, increases in health care costs / profiteering and increasing demands on government reserves that aren't really there. This all adds up to a bleak picture going forward. While I doubt it'll go "boom" and implode it's possible - 2008 showed that it really is possible or even likely that our so-called "leaders" will live in total denial of reality and diddle about playing "kick the can" to the point things actually do go "boom" rather than actually paying attention, being responsible (or at least aware), thinking past the next election cycle or making sustainable fiscal policy a serious issue. I don't know which would be worse - a rapid "boom" type event a la 2008 or a more drawn-out period of steady decline. I wonder also which is more likely.

At some point people will get sick and tired of living the lie, the malaise and the blatant disregard of their well-being by those who have been charged with it, and real change will be demanded - likely at the barrel of guns. A new system will emerge (whether before or after a collapse is the big question), stability and prosperity will return for a while and eventually the cycle will repeat - those in charge will get power-drunk, playing games with peoples' futures and buying their short-term support with promises they can only keep by robbing from the future. Rinse, lather, repeat. I just wonder how long it will take to get to that point and what will happen in the interim. It might range anywhere from "inconvenient / unpleasant" (like the 1970s) to "bad" (2008-9 to today) to Great Depression / Greece / Zimbabwe / Weimar Republic type collapse. Nobody knows.

My biggest fear is that the economic stupidity and recklessness embraced and promoted by certain political agendas (usually leftist ones) will create one of these sorts of situations and leave us divided, enfeebled and vulnerable to exploitation by truly evil and manipulative interests like Islam / ISIS, despotic dictators / regional warlords, a communist totalitarian type system or some combination. Hold onto your guns. You may well need them in the days ahead.

You forget that they passed Dodd-Frank...

[sammyg2]

On the news this morning they were interviewing idiots ... i mean Greek citizens who were delebrating the no vote on austerity moves.
One young lady explained that she was happy with the no vote because further austerity moves were BELOW THEIR DIGNITY.

There ya have in friends, the perfect example of socialist entitlement mentality.

They have already spent all the money they had and then got bailed out, and spent all that money and want more but they are not willing to cut spending because that would be beneath their dignity.

I say screw the entire country. Let em starve or get off the pot and serve as an example for the rest of the lazy-assed liberal world.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

On the news this morning they were interviewing idiots ... i mean Greek citizens who were delebrating the no vote on austerity moves.
One young lady explained that she was happy with the no vote because further austerity moves were BELOW THEIR DIGNITY.

There ya have in friends, the perfect example of socialist entitlement mentality.

They have already spent all the money they had and then got bailed out, and spent all that money and want more but they are not willing to cut spending because that would be beneath their dignity.

I say screw the entire country. Let em starve or get off the pot and serve as an example for the rest of the lazy-assed liberal world.

You mean evil man. Won't you think of the children? The poor innocent children...

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

On the news this morning they were interviewing idiots ... i mean Greek citizens who were delebrating the no vote on austerity moves.
One young lady explained that she was happy with the no vote because further austerity moves were BELOW THEIR DIGNITY.

There ya have in friends, the perfect example of socialist entitlement mentality.

They have already spent all the money they had and then got bailed out, and spent all that money and want more but they are not willing to cut spending because that would be beneath their dignity.

I say screw the entire country. Let em starve or get off the pot and serve as an example for the rest of the lazy-assed liberal world.

I absolutely guarantee you no one will starve in Greece.

And you shouldn't really judge a nation by the stupid comments of a few.

[legion]

Originally Posted by red-beard

You mean evil man. Won't you think of the children? The poor innocent children...

They spent their children's, grand children's, and great grand children's tax dollars on themselves, before most of them were even born.

[GH85Carrera]

My grandparents told me a few stories of living through the great depression. There were of course no government checks or programs at all. My grandfather on my dad's side said he was lucky because he was working at a local meat processing plant, Armor & Cos. One day they had a company wide announcement. There was just not enough work to keep everyone on the work force full time. They just went to alternating shifts. My grandfather just had to share his job with another guy. They would work every other day. Of course that means your paycheck is just 1/2 of before and he was making pennies per hour for hard physical work in HOT stinky conditions.

My mom's dad was real lucky. He had a job at the post office so he was on the government payroll and did not have to worry about reduced hours or layoffs.

They just went without a lot of things.

I can't imagine how they survived. I have been flat out dead broke without enough money to buy any food except rice and potatoes. No alcohol, no dates, only what was necessary to live. I never went without insurance or a place to live. I have only been unemployed for four working days since I was a junior in high school.

[74-911]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

The biggest tragedy of the Obama administration (and oddly the one most people don't seem to notice or care about) is the totally squandered opportunity to meaningfully reform our currency and banking system in wake of the once-in-a-hundred-years event that was the 2008 collapse / housing bubble implosion.

Unfortunately, history has shown all to often that when the "insert name here" administsration has "reformed" any part of our financial system, the law of unintended consequences has eventually appeared with a vengeance. i.e. allowing S&L's to venture into commercial lending caused the great S&L meltdown and housing bust in the Southwest during the 80's. That bust led eventually to changes in financial regs in the 90's allowing investment banks and other to-big-to-fail businesses (AIG) to eventually nearly bring down the entire financial system.

The 2008 collapse may or may not have been a 100 year event (that remains to be seen) but the groundwork for it was laid in the 1980's when the S&L's went away...

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by 74-911

Unfortunately, history has shown all to often that when the "insert name here" administsration has "reformed" any part of our financial system, the law of unintended consequences has eventually appeared with a vengeance. i.e. allowing S&L's to venture into commercial lending caused the great S&L meltdown and housing bust in the Southwest during the 80's. That bust led eventually to changes in financial regs in the 90's allowing investment banks and other to-big-to-fail businesses (AIG) to eventually nearly bring down the entire financial system.

The 2008 collapse may or may not have been a 100 year event (that remains to be seen) but the groundwork for it was laid in the 1980's when the S&L's went away...

And it was the fault of MULTIPLE administrations and Multiple laws. If we blame Bubba, then we must also blame the congress that was with him at the time. If we blame W, then we must blame the leaders in congress in 2007-2008.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by legion

They spent their children's, grand children's, and great grand children's tax dollars on themselves, before most of them were even born.

So have you! As well as every American, in that Americans are like Wimpy eating a Hamburger everyday since 1968 with the promise to pay back the SS and Medicare Trust Funds next Tuesday.

So what kind of payment plan would you like to have MR Legion to payback your governmental debt of roughly 125,000,000,000,000.00 USD? When can we expect your check?

There are a number of people on this Board who are mostly of a Conservative bent who have lived prudently and have saved their money. However some of those people are sanctimonious in that they have lived more prosperously (as a society) than they would have otherwise if the US government did not go so deeply into debt. In other words they wouldn't quiet have what they have now. U might say that they managed their own affairs quiet well but failed in their social responsibility to watch the public Treasury largely because the gravy was so rich. Now unfortunately the handwriting is writ large on the wall that the Wimpy Burger bill is coming due and they, their children and grandchildren will be saddled with that burden.

The answer for Mr Legion is like that of Greece's we can't repay the debt. Unfortunately it does not make the consequences of their previous action any less onerous.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

I absolutely guarantee you no one will starve in Greece.

And you shouldn't really judge a nation by the stupid comments of a few.

How many quotes should I review before judging? They are all over the web, including some from the gubmint saying the exact same thing.
IIRC the vote result was 61.31 % against ....... so it could very well be possible that 38% of the people there are NOT greedy spoiled idiots.

Opponents of the most recent Eurogroup proposal felt that the austerity measures put forth by the group’s leaders—which would have included tax hikes, pension cuts, and reductions in government jobs—were overly harsh and punitive, and would hurt Greeks more than help them. The proposal also didn’t include sufficient provisions for writing down Greece’s debt—an omission that some critics, including Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, believed would leave the country in shambles for generations. Varoufakis said that he would “rather cut off [his] arm” than sign a deal that extends or intensifies the country’s debt. He had planned to quit if the country voted in favor of the deal.

IOW loan us a bunch more money, but write off the debt at The same time.
So basically, don't loan us anything, just GIVE IT TO US!
And next year when we run out of your money, GIVE US MORE!

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

― Margaret Thatcher

[tabs]

For most of your interpretations your time lines are too short. LBJ started the spending binge with his "Guns and Butter" policies in the mid 1960's from which we are still not free of. By the late 1970's under the Carter administration the problems with the American economy were coming home to roost in a big way. The American people did not like to be told that they should put on a sweater so Mr Chaarter was clobbered in the 1980 election by the perennial optimist Mr R Reagan. Under Mr R Reagan America entered into a feel good about yourself "New Morning" in America. During which time American companies cleaned out the deadwood bureaucracy of decades to become lean and mean competitive. However Mr R Reagan was unable to deal with the structural malaise or dark side of the American economy due to his own tumultuous childhood of having an Alcoholic father. He could not bear to deal with the negative anymore. It was during this period that the seeds were sown for what we have become today. Which could basically be said to be kick the can down the road with ever bigger bubble economies to maintain the illusion of prosperity. This illusion came to an abrupt end the moment GW Bush came on the TV and said, "Folks we have to pass the TARP cause the economy is about to melt down." The response was, SAY WHAT???? What do you mean the economy is about to melt down, I thought.....!!!! That moment ended the Great American WW2 Prosperity Bubble. Now as much as they try and apply the same old remedies that seemed to work so well for decades* they can not put Humpty Dumpty back together again.



*Those remedies only seemed to work as the USA was in a the midst of a great prosperity bubble. It is like thinking you are a financial wizard because you make a lot of money during a RE boom period. When in fact you are but a one trick pony and when the music stops you are pressed to come up with a new trick. But instead of a new trick you keep trying to rely on the old and now dysfunctional methodology because it seemed to work before. Which eventually leads you further into the hole until........

[tabs]

The American people generally know the economy ain't so good, that the politicians are trying to put lipstick on the pig or are promising that they can purty up the critter if only they is elected. Truth is that this is it, the brave new normal. One just wonders what would happen when they stop juicing the system with fake money and artificially low interest rates?

You see the FED maintained street credibility when they "Tapered off" QE3. If they did not do that there is no telling where we would be today? I would bet it wouldn't be very purty though.

[tabs]

What Reaganites don't like to be reminded of is that when American corporations became lean and mean competitive during his administration. It was Lower and Middle management jobs that were eliminated. That means Middle Class jobs went the way of the dinosaurs. Then during the 1990's with the wide spread advent of the PC most of the Clerical jobs went by the by and with NAFTA in the early 90's it just became cheaper to go to Mexico for manufacturing. The jobs that were created under Clinton were largely service orientatated jobs> "Would you like to Super Size those fries sir?" Under GW the economic recovery was led by RE construction which was 16% of the US economy. The problem came when the WS Boyz decided to keep the music playing for too long cause the gravy they was makin was so sweet that they lost sight of the ground.

Do ya see how all of this stuff weaves together?

[Iciclehead]

Originally Posted by tabs

The American people generally know the economy ain't so good, that the politicians are trying to put lipstick on the pig or are promising that they can purty up the critter if only they is elected. Truth is that this is it, the brave new normal. One just wonders what would happen when they stop juicing the system with fake money and artificially low interest rates?

You see the FED maintained street credibility when they "Tapered off" QE3. If they did not do that there is no telling where we would be today? I would bet it wouldn't be very purty though.

To quote the bard, "there is a tide in the affairs of men...."

The Greeks are the canary in the coal mine in my opinion, their historical governments just sucked the big one, lied to get into the EU, happily took and squandered the funds that the eurocrats shovelled at them, all to buy nicer "stuff" and easier lifestyle...and, oh yes, spare the children from ever having a bad day.

Sound familiar in most countries?

The only difference in my mind between us and them is that their largesse with other people's money was shoved at them via the EU - who bears blame for that? Those who offered money to a country that did not have the economy to bear the debt or those who took it?

Good heavens, what kind of banker offers a gazillion dollars on what the government says? Oh. Wait. All of them...

Greece admits deficit figures were fudged to secure euro entry - Europe - World - The Independent

Pretty well every country, with few exceptions, have ran up debt over the last 30+ years, borrowing from our kids to make life easy now and guess what? TANSTAAFL!

I must admit I am spending an undue amount of time figuring out what I can do to avoid falling into a large black hole, wondering what is possible because we too often forget the other side of the debt. If the Greeks default...that means somebody, somewhere is not going to get back the money they put into the bank (or government) and which in turn was lent via bond to the Greeks.

Somebodies pockets will be emptier....and since in this case the bulk of the debt is held by the EU, mainly Germany ...read the BeeB on that, scroll down to the bottom to see where the debt is held.

Greece debt crisis: Creditors press for new proposals - BBC News

But a number of banks are also got their nuts in the vise......

I am starting to think that the spinoff effects of having to swallow what appears to be an offer of a further 30% haircut (not enough...the Greeks need at least 50% to be viable) will whack Merkel right in her virtual balls.

Ain't going to do much good to any other government leader who participated in this fiasco either.

And the really, really cute part? Whatever haircut the Greeks get will get replicated in all the other EU members who should have never joined.

And that'll hurt more than a little bit.

Dennis

[74-911]

Originally Posted by red-beard

And it was the fault of MULTIPLE administrations and Multiple laws. If we blame Bubba, then we must also blame the congress that was with him at the time. If we blame W, then we must blame the leaders in congress in 2007-2008.

James, agree 100%.. the blame for everything is usually laid at the foot of the "president" whose watch something happened on yet whatever crisis happens is always a joint effort spread across multiple administrations and congresses .

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I dare say that most if not all of these problems would have been avoided by having strict, lifetime term limits in place in order to prevent perpetual campaigning for reelection by our elected officials and the short-term thinking ("only as far as the next election") that goes with it. Let's leave that kind of short-term thinking for corporations (most of them only think ahead as far as the next quarterly report). We should expect more from government. Getting rid of a culture where people can't take political risk in the interest of standing up for some principles (because they might not get reelected!) is what the doctor orders.

Start there. We need (badly) two Constitutional Amendments - one requiring a balanced budget and another establishing a hard-and-fast limit on how many years someone can work for government - whether as an elected official or an employee / bureaucrat. No more lifetime government workers seeking only an (unsustainable) pension. That would help a LOT with this kind of stuff.

[wdfifteen]

"The biggest tragedy of the Obama administration (and oddly the one most people don't seem to notice or care about) is the totally squandered opportunity to meaningfully reform our currency and banking system in wake of the once-in-a-hundred-years event that was the 2008 collapse / housing bubble implosion."

A lot of people noticed. Republicans and conservatives were dead set against the administration meddling with the "free market" and opposed every effort. What we got was a watered-down Dodd-Frank bill that still isn't fully enacted. It would have been great for our country if republicans had recognized the problem and gotten behind banking and financial reform.

[Hugh R]

WD

When Dodd-Frank was passed, didn't Obama and the Democrats control both the House and the Senate? And looking at Wikipedia, it looks like the final version got Ds and Rs voting for it. So what are you rambling about?

[Rtrorkt]

simple fact is Clinton left a surplus that would have paid off the debt that the neo-cons used to bomb Iraq. Squandered our hard earned money on their dirty little war.