Who makes the final call for sailing Hurricane conditions?

[intakexhaust]

Not good for cargo ship El Faro.

Body found during search for missing El Faro cargo ship -U.S. Coast Guard

Apparently, El Faro was well equipped and prepped for heavy seas but once the engines washed out it became dire.

My question is by having all this modern technology, data analysis, predictions, communications, who with any common sense decides to challenge a big storm?

[HHI944]

The shipping industry runs on very tight margins and time is money so crews are often told to just man up. Really, a the end of the day, it's up to the shipping company as to what kind of weather they'll challenge.

[John Rogers]

The captain.

[nota]

Originally Posted by john rogers

The captain.

yes but

if the captain is slow to go
the owners can get a new one

[recycled sixtie]

Originally Posted by nota

yes but

if the captain is slow to go
the owners can get a new one

Depends on how hungry the replacement is. Isn't that where the union comes in? If it is unsafe then the captain has the right to refuse and not lose his job......

[ficke]

Final say is always the captain of the ship.
The ship and crews safety is ultimately his responsibility.
The El Faro did not leave knowing it was going into that bad of a hurricane, it developed while at sea into that monster hurricane, It was overwhelmed by mother nature and that just happens sometimes.
As a side note the Merchant marines suffered the heaviest losses in WWII by capita of all the branches of service. They dealt with the North Atlantic weather in poor ships and U-boats.

[tevake]

The final decision has to be the captain's.
There is surely a lot of pressure to keep to the schedule.

I remember years ago during a storm in Kauai.
The passenger cruise ship was in port on its weekly visit.
Came time to depart and the Pilot decided the conditions were too rough to leave.
I'm sure the transfer to the pilot boat off shore was on his mind as well as the challenge of getting the ship safely out the harbor mouth with set waves 20' plus brakeing all the way across the channel.

Well the Captain, who was qualified to pilot from that harbor chose to keep to his schedule and head out. There would be a load of passengers waiting for the ship in Honolulu the next day.
I was out windsurfing the harbor mouth in over mast high waves and 35+knts of wind when I saw the ship peel off of the dock. Could'nt believe what I was seeing, but cleared out of the harbor mouth area and over to another area to watch the action.
The Channel to the harbor mouth is a dogleg around a dock separating the inner harbor from the outer break wall and the exit channel. To round this outer dock called for a sharp turn to port, putting the wind on the starboard side of the ship. This caused the ship to start drifting quickly to port and towards the windward side do the outer dock where 10' grinders were crashing right onto the dock. It drifted so far so quickly that the stern was out of the channel and the channel marking bouy got sucked under the aft end of the ship near the propellers. Whew, I was so relieved to see the bouy pop out from the stern of the ship. Had it hung up in the props, it would have led to the biggest maritime disaster I'd been around.
Instead it poped out and the ship cleared the dock, punched out thru some of the biggest surf I'd ever seen in the harbor mouth, and continued on it bumpy way to Honolulu.
This decision by the Captain was the talk of the harbor for some time. And he was very lucky to make it out as clean as he did. I'm sure his decision was made under pressure from the home office.

Sorry for the hijack. sailors and their sea stories, What ya gona do.


Cheers Richard

[Tervuren]

Those cruise ships have some insanely high levels handling. They look much bigger than their weight, have a lot of power, and only have a few feet of draft.

When one is built, they search out storms to learn how it handles, and what to do.

[berettafan]

Light weight and shallow draft don't seem congruous with good seakeeping.

[SoCal911T]

The cruise ships are getting so top heavy that I think it's just a matter of time before something really bad happens.

I wonder how many containers from the El Faro are floating around? Hitting one in a smaller boat could ruin your whole day...or night.

[berettafan]

Whew hadn't thought about that. We stay fairly close (12 miles or so) to shore...wonder what drift these things will follow. Very scary stuff.

[Don Ro]

In an interview, the company owner - which owns the cargo ship - said it was the Captain' s choice.

[Tervuren]

Originally Posted by SoCal911T

The cruise ships are getting so top heavy that I think it's just a matter of time before

Actually, its the opposite, the higher $$$ in the industry has led to the use of light weight more expensive materials above the hull. Even though the ships are getting taller, they are being built with carbon fiber and aluminum on top of a steel hull.

The CG is quite low, and the hull shape, and its resulting moving CB, combined with low CG, allow for incredible listing angles to be achieved. The ships also have sets of ballast pumps and jets that provide an active stabilization.

As far as big ships are concerned, they are the Ferrari/Lamborghini of the seas.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by nota

yes but

if the captain is slow to go
the owners can get a new one

This is correct - but with a few caveats (no, it's not quite so simplistic as the poor captain versus the big mean evil company):

I flew as a captain for a regional cargo airline for a couple of years and it's exactly the same situation with aircraft as with ships. You can always so "no" if the conditions are bad but there is considerable pressure put on you to go if you can (standard line from dispatch is, "go take a look - maybe the conditions aren't that bad in reality" and there is a nugget of truth to this) or otherwise push the limits. The bottom line is that they need the cargo getting through - if we don't service our customers, someone else will, so you better be absolutely sure it's unsafe before you say "no-go". You learn very quickly to grow up as a pilot and do some serious soul-searching with regards to risk management. Most guys "get it" and reserve their right to decline to when it's REALLY unsafe and in those situations the company doesn't give you any grief about it. Usually they've already built-in a workaround or a "Plan B" anyway (they're not stupid and while they do expect you to push the limits, they realize that there ARE limits).

After my probationary period I only said "no can do" once due to weather (waited it out for two hours and was then able to go safely) and two other times I was forced to divert enroute due to conditions (once was a mechanical issue, once was weather - smoke from wildfires actually). There were assorted other workarounds a few times that were put in place by dispatch ahead of time because they knew certain airports we flew into (VFR only) probably weren't going to be possible that day so they said "we've put a contingency plan in place, go to KXXX airport instead but it looks like it'll be good enough at the original / usual airport by the time you get there then go for it - make the call 'on the field' so to speak". There's an earned trust there but at the end of the day it's your call and you own the decision. That's why you've got four bars on your shoulders. If you say "hey it looks good at the original airport" and decide to go, then can't get in, you're the one with the egg on your face (thankfully never happened to me!)

Bottom line is it IS the captain's choice and any company that isn't completely stupid won't push too hard if conditions are downright terrible and beyond what's safe but the reality is "what's safe" can actually include conditions that inexperienced people or laypeople might think aren't. Some of the best, most fun and most challenging flying I ever did was in adverse conditions and it's what makes you better and helps you to understand what the limits of man, machine and system really are (legal limits / minima are another discussion entirely). Was this ship capable (machine and crew) to make it through hurricane conditions? Quite possibly, so even though it sells newspapers to sensationalize it and imply that a company pushed a captain to sail into a hurricane is disingenuous. There's some truth there perhaps, but it's not the whole story I'll bet. Most captains are willing to accept a little discomfort but not outright fear for their lives (we're the ones who could die, remember?)

If a captain says "no" too often they're going to find themselves reassigned or out of a job but if you're reasonable and get the trust of the dispatch managers to the point they know you're pushing it for them, have the company's best interests in mind with your decisions and are out there trying your best (and succeeding 99% of the time), not being a whiner or a crybaby, etc. they'll definitely work with you. Dispatchers are not all bad guys. Most of them are pretty down-to-earth actually.

I never once heard of a pilot being fired for saying "no can do" but it didn't happen too often. There's a certain bravado that comes into play too (which you need to be aware of and not let it get the best of you and into trouble, which may have been a factor here as well). Other airlines had different reputations - the real "cowboy" ones tended to not stick around too long either - there were and are some real fly-by-night outfits but after an incident / accident or two nobody will insure them anymore and they fold. The reality is the system is pretty good but if you're a captain you better be prepared to "push it" right to the limits - but not beyond. Push too far and you make a big smoking hole in the ground. But you'd be surprised how far you can push - safely.

Originally Posted by Don Ro

In an interview, the company owner - which owns the cargo ship - said it was the Captain' s choice.

And this is why the captains get paid the "big bucks" - it's not to drive the ship or airplane (computers do a way better job of that than a human ever could now), it's to indemnify the company if something goes wrong. That's the ONLY reason we still have captains, actually. It's a way for the company to wash its hands of any direct responsibility. That's the game.

[intakexhaust]

Interesting feedback and replies. So ultimately, headquarters doesn't make the call. The huge responsibility fully lies with one person, the captain.

With that and all the technology and tools available today, why don't they have a 'checks and balance' approach between personal and decisions? What I mean is, take the single person ultimate decision equation out of it and rather have a panel decide.

Too bad those lost to sea over some wrong choice by a sole individual.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by tevake

Sorry for the hijack. sailors and their sea stories, What ya gona do.


Cheers Richard

You know the difference between a fairy tale and a sea story?


One starts out, "Once upon a time..."

The other starts with, "This is no BS..."

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

With that and all the technology and tools available today, why don't they have a 'checks and balance' approach between personal and decisions? What I mean is, take the single person ultimate decision equation out of it and rather have a panel decide.

Way too dynamic an environment. Someone has to make the ultimate call. I am sure they have guidelines, just like aviation.

What is interesting to me is how off the forecast movement of this storm was. It sat and spun in one place far longer that anticipated. That may have been the reason for the sinking. Ships at sea ride completely differently depending on their course and how that influences the waves and winds in relation to the course, following seas, etc.

This is no B.S: I was a certified, steely-eyed Officer of the Deck in the U.S. Navy.

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Too bad those lost to sea over some wrong choice by a sole individual.

Happens all the time, that is why I hate flying commercial. I was comfortable with ME as the pilot in command for over 20 years making go/no go call. I don't like ceding that control to others

[fingpilot]

The final call is always God.... er I mean the Captain.... I mean Gawd, the Captain, actually.

Might be one and the same.

In this case, it now comes out the sistership arrived in Jaxsonville just before the El Faro departed. Captains spent some time conferring about weather and actual conditions experienced. Faro Captain adjusted course a little north to give some room for the movement of the storm.

Then Murphy boarded. Engine trouble at the worst possible moment.

[intakexhaust]

Thanks again guys. I'm just pondering it all, knowing another choice was available and the entire tragedy could have been avoided.

But even so, washed out engines with not really a redundancy is like double downing in a game of Craps, except there's lives at stake.

From the little reading on this tragedy, I understand this ship could or expect to handle 30 footer's. They had confidence in it but here something bigger happened, perhaps took the engines. Now a lame duck, no way to steer into the big ones, next are a bad chain of events, compounding the situation. Obviously, they didn't figure on that happening but dang if that individual should have played it safe and not bet on a tropical storm.

[Baz]

I wouldn't mind seeing a manifest of what the cargo consisted of.

RIP to all who perished.