Looking for a hard cast .44 mag round that will cycle in a Henry.

[HardDrive]

This year, I shot a small doe with my Henry .44. I used Winchester off the shelf 240gr. cartridges. Shot was at about 80 yards. The deer was moving, and I hit it in the shoulder. The shoulder was decimated internally, but there was no exit wound. When I got to the deer, there was little sign of life, but I shot it again, down through the body towards the heart. No exit wound that I could see! The bullet did not come out of the chest. I'm sure the internal damage was massive, but the amount of blood on the ground was surprisingly small.

The round dropped the deer, but I found the lack of penetration disturbing. What if I hit a bigger deer that ran? Without an exit wound, a deer could make it a long way before dying, with little or no blood trail. That isn't good. I'd like a fat, hard cast bullet that will go straight through.

Can anyone recommend an off the shelf hard cast round that will play nice with a lever action?

EDIT: I need read to roll cartridges, not bullets.

[Arizona_928]

Acme Bullet Co. has a few options.

[HardDrive]

Acme sells bullets. I need complete cartridges.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Buffalo Bore is pretty much "the" name in heavy loads.

Also, they're not cheap, but the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator (available from Underwood Ammo) will go through the deer and the one behind it. And the one behind that one.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Just browsed around on Underwood some more. This is nuts:

https://www.underwoodammo.com/44-remington-magnum-p-340-grain-lead-flat-nose-gas-check/

Don't know if it would feed in your Henry given the length of the bullet, but I'd sure like to try it out.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Just browsed around on Underwood some more. This is nuts:

https://www.underwoodammo.com/44-remington-magnum-p-340-grain-lead-flat-nose-gas-check/

Don't know if it would feed in your Henry given the length of the bullet, but I'd sure like to try it out.

Nice. Their 305gr round might be just what I'm looking for.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Buffalo Bore is pretty much "the" name in heavy loads.

Also, they're not cheap, but the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator (available from Underwood Ammo) will go through the deer and the one behind it. And the one behind that one.

Hmmm... have you done this yourself, seen it done, or are you just reading their advertising? Sorry to sound so harsh, but...

There are lots of promises out there. Lots of advertising claims. Buffalo Bore and others have good reputations, but...

Cast bullet performance is up to you. There are no shortcuts. You cannot buy it "off the shelf". While there is a massive body of knowledge out there, and broad generalities regarding what we "know" works, every gun is different. Jacketed bullets do a wonderful job of masking these differences and are easy to produce commercially, hence their current popularity. In sharp contrast, hard cast bullets do a wonderful job of highlighting these differences, and are almost impossible to produce commercially. What shoots great in my gun may shoot like a shotgun in yours.

Your best bet for hard cast bullet-like performance, if you do not reload or cast your own bullets, is to buy the FMJ truncated cone "silhouette" loads offered by many companies. They will be short enough to feed through the Henry, and will provide cast bullet-like performance - extreme penetration without expanding.

That last part is important, and will change the way you have to shoot your game. Essentially, you are now shooting at an internal organ, or some of the major bone structure (preferably both, like the front quartering shot through the near shoulder and and lungs), not the "chest area". With no expansion, nor "hydrostatic shock" (if you believe in such things), bullets must be more precisely placed.

Another great option, and a real "blast from the past" is the plain old swaged lead bullet. Remington still offers a 240 grain load. While absolutely lacking in glamour or any sort of modern, whiz-bang b.s., these things kill. They are soft enough to stay together in one piece, and heavy enough to penetrate very well. Being quite soft, they work well in a variety of bore sizes, but might lead a bit. They essentially replicate old .44-40 loads, which have killed more whitetails than any of us will ever live to see. Plus, they are dirt cheap (for .44 mag loads), so you can afford to practice a lot.

Another consideration - the slow twist of lever gun barrels in .44 mag will not stabilize the big heavy 300 grain + bullets. You need to stick with 240 and 250 grain loads.

[aigel]

What type bullet was it that you shot?

Would a Cu bullet be good for this application?

I am not an expert. Hunting in CA I have to shoot non-lead ammo in some areas (and soon the entire state). I really like the Cu bullet performance across the board, to the point where I have started to use Cu even out of state and in zones that still allow Pb. I have not killed a big game animal with a pistol cartridge using Cu, but the closest would be a .30-30 that makes quick work with excellent penetratin using copper Barnes Triple-Shock X - 150-grainers. Last animal killed was a 450 pound black bear - in a cave.

Cheers from Pb-free CA,

George

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Hmmm... have you done this yourself, seen it done, or are you just reading their advertising? Sorry to sound so harsh, but...

There's enough independent documentation out there - some of which is complaints about "over penetration" of the bullet design - that I'm sufficiently convinced.

Another consideration - the slow twist of lever gun barrels in .44 mag will not stabilize the big heavy 300 grain + bullets. You need to stick with 240 and 250 grain loads.

Good point - I didn't consider this. The Henry's twist rate is about half of a Ruger Blackhawk's. Would the additional velocity from the longer barrel have any bearing on bullet stabilization?

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by aigel

What type bullet was it that you shot?

Winchester 240gr jacketed soft points. These:

Winchester USA Ammo 44 Remington Mag 240 Grain Jacketed Soft Point Box

[cabmandone]

I'll ask my friend what he is using. I know he went up to 300 grain but he's punching quarter size groups at 100 yds and I haven't heard him complain about no pass through shots. He's a really good guy, I'm sure if I asked he'd build you 50 or so rounds for the cost of lead, brass, primers and powder. Maybe the Henry shoots different but the Marlin 44 two of my friends own both like the same load.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Winchester 240gr jacketed soft points. These:

Winchester USA Ammo 44 Remington Mag 240 Grain Jacketed Soft Point Box

Try these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/342950/barnes-vor-tx-ammunition-44-remington-magnum-225-grain-xpb-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20

At least the above are made with hunting and penetration in mind. You have so many deer in the Midwest, it should be no problem to try this out next weekend, right!?

G

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

There's enough independent documentation out there - some of which is complaints about "over penetration" of the bullet design - that I'm sufficiently convinced.

O.k., I'll go with that. I guess I've become jaded over the years.

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Good point - I didn't consider this. The Henry's twist rate is about half of a Ruger Blackhawk's. Would the additional velocity from the longer barrel have any bearing on bullet stabilization?

I was hoping this would be the case in a few I've tried it in, but so far, no luck. I have several 300 grain and heavier molds for .44 mag and .45 Colt, and these sure seem like they would be the shiz for deer hunting in the woods. I've gone as far as to modify these rifles to actually feed these (OAL, if loaded out to the maximum length allowed by either Blackhawk, M29, or Virginian Dragoon cylinders is too long for lever guns) in hopes of having the ultimate woods carbine. All to no avail.

Interestingly, after spending a good many years playing with these heavyweight molds, I've actually gone back to more of a "standard" weight in my .44's and .45's. I'm back to the original 250 grain Keith bullet (from the RCBS .44-250K mold) in the .44's, and the RCBS .45-270 SAA in the .45's. These seem to be at the "happy spot" between weight and velocity, at least for my shooting. Plus, they will shoot somewhere within the elevation adjustment range of standard sixgun without having to replace the front sight, and are happy with the twist rate in common lever guns. And, when I think about it, I've never recovered one from a game animal. Come to think of it, the only cast bullet fired from a revolver into a game animal that I have ever recovered was, in fact, a 300 grain LBT out of a .44 mag that broke the right shoulder of a caribou bull from about fifteen yards. It turned on his left scapula, ran all the way up his neck, and stopped under his left ear. I kinda have to think the 250 grain Keith probably would have done the same thing.

[MT930]

You indicated the deer went down fairy quickly. What ever load you were using it worked well.

Hornaday 44 Mag 240 gr XTP
These always did the trick with whitetails in the Midwest.

I've killed deer with factory ammo and hand loads with this bullet which is widely available in stores. It would be my first choice in factory ammo.

Very rarely did you have exit wounds with 44 Mag and deer. Big mushroomed slugs if you could find them.

If you are used to .270- 30/06 damage you just are not going to see it with the 44 Mag. It does get the job done +/- 100 Yrds

Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Handgun :: Choose by Caliber :: 44 Mag :: 44 Mag 240 gr XTP®

54 Cal Muzzle loader with the same bullets in sabots. Were much more effective.


Hornady XTP Bullets 54 Cal Sabot 44 Cal 240 Grain Jacketed Hollow

I do miss the muzzle loader hunting. One shot with iron sites in heavy timber.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I guess I've become jaded over the years.

Oh, you have good reason to be. It seems the snake oil salesmanship is only on the rise these days, with most of the BS oriented towards "defensive" ammunition. Some of the stuff is downright laughable. I have a little more faith in Lehigh because they make some genuinely good match bullets for .50 BMG. They're pretty serious about their machining.

Even Hornady has a new schtick, which is their plastic-tipped bullet utilizing a plastic that doesn't melt in flight. Supposedly resulting in superior accuracy, or ballistic coefficient, or whatever.

I wasn't aware that anyone ever used plastic-tipped bullets when accuracy was a concern, but what do I know. Since I run mostly semi-autos, the only plastic-tipped bullets I've seen are ones that have been smashed against a feed ramp before they even got into the chamber. I'd imagine that might be detrimental to accuracy...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Oh, you have good reason to be. It seems the snake oil salesmanship is only on the rise these days, with most of the BS oriented towards "defensive" ammunition. Some of the stuff is downright laughable. I have a little more faith in Lehigh because they make some genuinely good match bullets for .50 BMG. They're pretty serious about their machining.

Even Hornady has a new schtick, which is their plastic-tipped bullet utilizing a plastic that doesn't melt in flight. Supposedly resulting in superior accuracy, or ballistic coefficient, or whatever.

I wasn't aware that anyone ever used plastic-tipped bullets when accuracy was a concern, but what do I know. Since I run mostly semi-autos, the only plastic-tipped bullets I've seen are ones that have been smashed against a feed ramp before they even got into the chamber. I'd imagine that might be detrimental to accuracy...

I couldn't agree more. Granted, all advertising is subject to, say, some "enhancement", and the firearms industry is not immune. I'm old enough to remember when chronographs became readily available, and the resultant downward "adjustment" in claimed velocities.

The new brand of snake oil seems to be bullet design. Seems like there is a new one every week, claiming superiority over last week's. There's usually a full page ad for it right after you flip the page on which the review article is written. Be it some new whiz-bang big game bullet or self defense bullet, the schtick is the same.

Problem is, none of us will (hopefully) ever shoot enough rounds in self defense to evaluate the claims. Most of us will never shoot enough big game, under a broad enough variety of conditions, to really evaluate those claims, either.

I keep going back to cast bullets in the straight walled rifle and revolver cases, and plain old cup and core bullets in the bottlenecked cases. Oh, I've used Partitions, Ballistic Tips, Sciroccos, X bullets, Combined Technologies, Trophy Bonded, and a few more that don't come to mind right now. They all kill just fine, but from what I've seen, no better than plain old Sierra, Speer, Remington, or other cup and core bullets.

[flipper35]

150gr Nosler Ballistic Tips were some of the most accurate rounds I have ever fired from a 760 Carbine in 30-06 - in a hunting round.

[Craig T]

Hardrive, If you're buying "off-the-shelf" 44 mag for hunting and it's not working for you, get a good specific .44 Mag powder/bullet/COL recommendation from Jeff and buy the bullets only. You can ship them to me and I'll load 50 for you. I have 44 Mag dies, and plenty of new 44 mag brass, CCI Lg Magnum pistol primers, and plenty of H110 and A2400 powder. I'm sure Jeff can use either of those powders.

Too bad it's not the 44-40 Henry, or I'd have several option I could send you. My favorite 44-40 for boar hunting (no deer within easy reach of Ventura) is the Remington 200gr semi-jacketed soft point in front of 17gr of A2400 (1,400fps in 24"). I also have several different hardened lead options, gas checked and non-GC.

[9dreizig]

Hardrive.. I don't think it will matter much what bullet you have,, the fact is a 44 is just not that fast moving.. I"ve dropped many deer with a 35 rem and never had an exit wound.. and almost always they dropped in one shot.. a heavy and slow round like that delivers a lot of energy,, I'd not worry about having an exit wound.. just my 2cents..
Sparty On!!!!

[cabmandone]

My friend and my nephew have both been hunting with a 44 for two years now. Both have taken deer at differing ranges and I have never seen a 44 not exit and most certainly not on a shot up close to finish as HD is saying he did. My friend took his doe from about 30 yards, in one side... out the other on a quartering to shot 300 grain hand loads. His finishing shot also pass through. My nephew took a buck last year from about 50 yds, pass through and clean kill. Nephew took a doe this year 25 yards.. pass through and he's using 240 grain ammo so I don't get what's going on here if there was truly no exit on the finishing shot.

I'll say this, I've seen enough of the 44 to know I'll be in the hunt for one before gun season 2016 rolls around. Did I mention another friend using a 44 dropped a doe at 225 yards this year? Yeah... I'm getting one.