A Message to Our Customers - Apple

[stomachmonkey]

How would people react if the FED mandated that every new house built and every house that currently stands be fitted with an additional door specifically for law enforcements use in case they decided they wanted to pay you a visit whenever they wanted.

Oh, and you are not allowed to lock it or tie it into your security system to protect yourself from every lowlife out there that now knows these doors exist.

That is what the FED wants.

No thank you.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Baz

Just like it never happened.....

Because it did happen.

You can't unring the bell.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Because it did happen.

You can't unring the bell.

Having trouble with my Verizon cell phone. Go to the local Verizon store. Guy takes it back in the back room. Comes back out 15 minutes later and it's working again.

Now how would you even know that happened?

You were not there.

There were no cameras there.

I did not go on social media and tell everyone what happened.

The event was not covered by the media.

Verizon did not issue a statement to it's customers.

Just like it never happened.....

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

How would people react if the FED mandated that every new house built and every house that currently stands be fitted with an additional door specifically for law enforcements use in case they decided they wanted to pay you a visit whenever they wanted.

Oh, and you are not allowed to lock it or tie it into your security system to protect yourself from every lowlife out there that now knows these doors exist.

That is what the FED wants.

No thank you.

This is a good comparison. For those of you who don't understand the erosion of your rights look north to the intrusive snooping that is allowed in Canada.

It is wrong, but we roll over in the name of 'safety'.

I'm not an Apple fan in any way, but I support them here.

[Seahawk]

I tried to find the court order but was not successful.

In some articles it mentions "the phone" (belonging to Farook) and the request seems to target that phone only asking Apple to provide "reasonable technical assistance".

I think I am ok with that concept as long as the Feds have no insight into Apples encryption algorithms (if that is the correct term). It appears Apple made the leap to the "back door".

In any case, I am for getting the data off the phone. I am not for the Feds having any insight into Apples encryption of the creation of a "back door".

[GH85Carrera]

Just give it to the geeks on the TV shows. They can hack into the most secure computers and phones in seconds.

One show had the guy reset the clock on a iPad in maybe 5 seconds. I don't even know how anyone can reset the clock on iPads or iPhones at all.

Back to the real world, it is amazing that the Feds don't already have a way to get to the data. The dead terrorist did not even own that phone so there is for sure no privacy rights on that one phone. I am amazed they can't clone the entire phone several times and then hack away until they crack it.

[legion]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

How would people react if the FED mandated that every new house built and every house that currently stands be fitted with an additional door specifically for law enforcements use in case they decided they wanted to pay you a visit whenever they wanted.

Oh, and you are not allowed to lock it or tie it into your security system to protect yourself from every lowlife out there that now knows these doors exist.

That is what the FED wants.

No thank you.

The problem is that once a door like this exists, hackers and other governments will work tirelessly to open them, because then they have access to EVERYONE's data. I don't trust our government, and even if they can keep something like this secret and in-house, I don't trust that it won't be abused.

It is my understanding that Apple is not being asked to break the encryption, but rather to disable the feature that wipes the phone after X number of bad password guesses so that the FBI can brute-force its way in. Not quite the same thing, but still as chilling.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Baz

Having trouble with my Verizon cell phone. Go to the local Verizon store. Guy takes it back in the back room. Comes back out 15 minutes later and it's working again.

Now how would you even know that happened?

You were not there.

There were no cameras there.

I did not go on social media and tell everyone what happened.

The event was not covered by the media.

Verizon did not issue a statement to it's customers.

Just like it never happened.....

But it did happen.

And your analogy is not correct.

You asked Verizon to help you fix your device.

That's not remotely the same thing as the FED asking "Verizon" to create a way (that currently does not exist) to "fix" your device without your knowledge.

Huge difference.

In fact NOT knowing it happened is far worse than knowing.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by legion

The problem is that once a door like this exists, hackers and other governments will work tirelessly to open them, because then they have access to EVERYONE's data. I don't trust our government, and even if they can keep something like this secret and in-house, I don't trust that it won't be abused.

Yup, that was my point.

[Baz]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

But it did happen.

And your analogy is not correct.

You asked Verizon to help you fix your device.

I didn't use the word "fix". I said I was having "trouble" with it. "Trouble" could also include getting it unlocked and getting access to my data. Which is what Apple is being asked for. The part about creating software is just the nuts and bolts of the situation...something i don't care about nor need any information about - I just want the data....not the knowledge of how it was done.

That's not remotely the same thing as the FED asking "Verizon" to create a way (that currently does not exist) to "fix" your device without your knowledge.

Huge difference.

In fact NOT knowing it happened is far worse than knowing.

Not for me - I just want the data.

See my bolded responses above.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I tried to find the court order but was not successful.

In some articles it mentions "the phone" (belonging to Farook) and the request seems to target that phone only asking Apple to provide "reasonable technical assistance".

I think I am ok with that concept as long as the Feds have no insight into Apples encryption algorithms (if that is the correct term). It appears Apple made the leap to the "back door".

In any case, I am for getting the data off the phone. I am not for the Feds having any insight into Apples encryption of the creation of a "back door".

The encryption algorithms are really not at issue here.

The device is end to end encryption meaning the hash is based on each unique individual phone. The hash exists no where else. No physical device, no hash.

Even Apple, by design, does not have access to a specific phones hash which makes me believe it's a randomly generated string embedded in a component at time of manufacture.

But what that means is as soon as the device is unlocked any data can be accessed unencrypted. The device does the decryption on the fly.

That is the reason the device needs to be unlocked. You could take the phone apart and pull the raw bits from the NAND but it will be encrypted and since no one knows that specific devices hash and the hash is not recoverable the raw data can't (easily) be decrypted.

What the FED want is for Apple to disable the auto wipe feature that kicks in after 10 failed unlock attempts.

What that entails is most likely a version of iOS that has been modified to not include that feature. Not a trivial task that one does during lunch break.

That's a huge problem because it makes all the other security features useless. You don't need to worry about encryption when you have an accessible device so that's out the window.

On a 4 pin phone there are only 10.000 possible pins.

10% of 4 pin phones can be accessed using 1234, 1111, 0000

There are 20-30 commonly used pins that will get you access to 30% of devices.

Some guys built a robot that physically taps in pins on a screen that can run through all 10,000 possible pins in under 20 hours.

Same guys are working on a pad that will mimic a finger press on the screen and they figure that should be able to run through all 10k pins in a few of hours.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Baz

See my bolded responses above.

Giving someone something that does not function as you expect it to and having it returned functioning as you want it to is the definition of something having been fixed whether you use the word fix or not so I don't get why that changes anything but whatever.

As for the last part, you may not care about the integrity of anyone else's data, security, privacy, and rights but some of us do.

This is not just about one dead terrorists phone.

It's all part of the FEDs long game.

They want a way into any device and they are using this to scare people into supporting their efforts to infringe on our rights.

And sadly it seems to be working.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

I have a hard time believing the FBI can't crack it, or turn it over to the NSA. When I was studying computer forensics the FBI claimed they condo recover files from a drive that had been overwritten and erased 7x... If they admit to that what else can they do. They've got some damn good computer geeks there.

You do realize that the government lies, right?

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

....They've got some damn good computer geeks there.

Yes, but the really good guys are all in private sector because they can't pass the piss test.

NOTE: private sector includes criminal enterprises.

[jyl]

Does the FBI Have a Strong Legal Case Against Apple? Here's an Analysis - Fortune

How Apple will fight the DOJ in iPhone backdoor crypto case | Ars Technica

Why Tim Cook is right to call court-ordered iPhone hack a

[jyl]

The government's main point is that they want Apple to create a tool (a modified OS) that will be used once and only once to unlock this one and only this one phone.

Who will have access to this tool?. If the government gets it - legitimately or otherwise - then it will be used again and again, to unlock any iPhone the government wants to, with or without anyone knowing about it.

If Apple manages to keep the tool from the government and immediately destroys it, then the next time the government wants to unlock an iPhone, it will get the same court order requiring Apple to build the same tool. The more such orders the government gets, the easier the next one will be to get. Start with a globally reviled terrorist, end up with any accused criminal. So effectively, iPhones will open to government searches.

"Government" does not mean just the US government. The Chinese government could order Apple to do this. The Russian government could order it. And they might take the tool too. If the US government does, other governments will quickly follow.

Will Apple keep spending - what, millions of dollars? - each time it is ordered to unlock an iPhone? Or will it eventually give up and build a backdoor into the operating system?. Well, Apple has a lot of money and a CEO who is uncommonly strong willed. But would Dell, IBM, Cisco, Juniper, Samsung, Oracle, Google, Microsoft fight long and hard?

That is the "slippery slope" argument. I think it is very realistic. And will happen.

The fact that this iPhone was owned by a horrible terrorist is irrelevant. The government has carefully picked this as its test case. "Hard cases make bad law".

[widebody911]

Aye - there's the rub:

Law enforcement agencies across the country are being thwarted by Apple’s encrypted devices, and the FBI likely chose this case—which involves an infamous terrorist—as its best chance to force Apple to change course.

[Brando]

I just look to the past to realize how the government will use this in the future:

Look up "stingrays". Yeah, only supposed to be used when a warrant is issued. San Diego is in hot water for all the secrecy around owning and deploying such devices. They are just the first city/LEA to get caught. How many more are rolling around out there we don't know about. And if the LEAs have them, I guarantee you "bad guys" have them, too.

Same thing applies to this back-door. If LEAs (and by extension, criminals) have a way to overwrite the core iOS to remove the security wipe feature, no-one's iPhone is secure.

This is the core of the discussion. Even though the FBI/CIA/NSA was able to get their call history, browser history, text message history (and probably more) - they are focusing on the phone. Why? Because it would give them a repeatable method for all other iOS devices.

[Deschodt]

I confess I don't get it. What exactly is on the phone that is encrypted ? Notes ?
Anything email related they can get from the servers. Any phone conversation the can wiretap with a warrant. Texts I imagine are also archived. The phone's cell tower chatter and GPS chip makes us all trackable. Anything on Icloud has been breached.. There's RFID chips on a lot of cards these days... On top of that, our social # are out there already from various hacks (ask me, someone else filed my taxes last year). What's on an iphone that they can't already get? The only thing not covered by the above on my phone is my pictures and evernotes because I don't use Icloud...

I like my privacy, but the phone of a dead terrorist ? I disagree with Apple. OK a backdoor is probably not a good idea because it will be cracked (especially this publicized), but they should implement something that works. I almost lost a few friends in Paris... there's nothing top secret on my smart phone. I'm a little disappointed in the NSA too, you cannot crack an Apple device ? I'm hoping it's a nice disinformation campaign !

[Evans, Marv]

That will never happen, Baz. Once it's done neither party will let it go. Even if the special "software" is destroyed, the knowledge and process to replicate it is there. As much as I think it important to know what is on that phone, I think almost all of us can recognize whatever data the government acquires will eventually be compromised.