Blown up BMW, wrong engine oil, whose fault?

[McLovin]

But he can put all the money he saved on oil changes towards the cost of the new engine, so it should come out ok.

[Jolly Amaranto]

I think if the car was designed to use only synthetic oil, then that is what should be used.

I once had kind of the revers problem with a 75 Toyota Corrolla. When Mobil One synthetic came out I started using that. The timing chain eventually failed. I was told that the chain tension device relied on oil pressure to provide the proper tension. The overall oil pressure was reduced by the synthetic causing slack in the timing chain. I replaced it all and went back to Dino and put another150,000 miles on it without a problem. Don't know if all that was really the problem but it made sense to me.

[pwd72s]

I bought a 5 year extended warranty from Ford for the Mustang. Never needed it. Have used mobil one 5-20 instead of the suggested motocraft synthetic blend in the same weight. Again, no problems...have had the dealership do the service. Why not? $24 for oil & filter plus tire rotate.

So..to the point. Service manager told me I could use any major brand oil I wished, even dino oil, as long as it was 5-20. The warranty doesn't specify brand. I don't know that I'd want to buy any car that has a warranty requirement for a specific brand of oil.

I was under the impression that an extended warranty from the car maker was generally good. But those issued by private insurance are not that good.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Was the lesson not to buy extended warranties or to use synthetic oil?

Both but it's not to use/not use synthetic or any certain oil, it's to use what is specified. It's seriously simple, there aren't even any other decisions to be made. Just use what it says.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

I bought a 5 year extended warranty from Ford for the Mustang. Never needed it. Have used mobil one 5-20 instead of the suggested motocraft synthetic blend in the same weight. Again, no problems...have had the dealership do the service. Why not? $24 for oil & filter plus tire rotate.

So..to the point. Service manager told me I could use any major brand oil I wished, even dino oil, as long as it was 5-20. The warranty doesn't specify brand. I don't know that I'd want to buy any car that has a warranty requirement for a specific brand of oil.

I was under the impression that an extended warranty from the car maker was generally good. But those issued by private insurance are not that good.

Just to clarify, even VW with their super strict oil requirements does not require a certain brand, only that it meets a spec. If the oil container says 502.1 on it somewhere and is the correct weight, you're good to go.

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

It's hard to believe an engine would fail if the correct viscosity was used on a timely basis, unless there's a rating or additive issue.

I quite simply do not believe that there is enough of a difference between synthetic, which is just modified dyno oil, and regular dyno oil to precipitate this catastrophic failure.

An extended warranty is essentially an insurance policy. Insurance companies are not in the business of paying claims. They exist to collect premiums and find ways not to pay on claims. No way do they pay on this, despite the fact that it is incumbent on them proving that his failure to use synthetic oil was the cause of this. They guy at the oil change shop is who the owner will end up giving the stink eye.

[JD159]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I quite simply do not believe that there is enough of a difference between synthetic, which is just modified dyno oil, and regular dyno oil to precipitate this catastrophic failure.

An extended warranty is essentially an insurance policy. Insurance companies are not in the business of paying claims. They exist to collect premiums and find ways not to pay on claims. No way do they pay on this, despite the fact that it is incumbent on them proving that his failure to use synthetic oil was the cause of this. They guy at the oil change shop is who the owner will end up giving the stink eye.

I was kind of thinking the same. More wear and tear? Possibly. But catastrophic failure? Not sure.

Unless he drives the thing hard and the Dino oil broke down enough to decrease the pressure significantly.

If I went too long with Brad Penn even if I had proper oil levels I'd know I needed a change by the pressure.

[John Rogers]

You have to remember that oil does three things basically and those are: reduce friction between two surfaces such as between connecting rod and main bearings, next is absorb shock such as when the brank shaft reaches bottom center and the rod needs to stop and then go up and finally absorb heat from the two surfaces and the closer they are then the more heat is generated and it needs cooling some how! VW or other car companies are smart when they list a spec(s) for the oil and possibly also the weight range. Example is my Chevy HHR 2.4 engine which lists some specs and also 5 - 20 weight synthetic only. The first time I changed the oil I wrote the specs and read the oil containers info and not all met the requirements. One that did that really surprised me was the Walmart store brand which is recycled I was told?

Depending on who made the oil decision, then the load is on their shoulders and I hope it was not you!

[unclebilly]

I don't want to drag this way off topic but let me add 3 slightly off topic points...

1. The correct oil DOES make a difference. I used to have a Dodge diesel with the Cummins and a Getrag 360 transmission. These transmissions were notorious for packing in (the main shaft bearing in the input shaft would get starved for lube if you ran gear oil in them like EVERYONE did). The key to making these things last was to run 5:30 synthetic motor oil or Dextron II in them an overfill them by a quart.

I keep this thing around...



2. With respect to extended warranties, I bought the 7 year / 200,000 km warranty for my Tundra when I bought it new. These are a bargaining chip because they have big markup - it cost me $1500. It didnt cover everything but it did cover a few park assist sensors at $600 a pop, a front end rebuild at 198,000 kms, and the replacement of the steering rack, upper and lower columns, power steering pump, pressure switch all for a misdiagnosed steering U-Joint at 195,000 kms...

3. Not all Synthetic oils are modified dino oils - this is Castrol Syntec. Some, such as Pennzoil Paltinum Pure Plus are made from Natural Gas and were never dino oil. I run this stuff in my daily drivers and something has caused the mileage to improve slightly in the Tundra since I started using it there over the past year (I cant believe it can be oil alone). With Mobil 1, it would be rattly on startup just before an oil change at 7500 - 8000 kms but is not with the Pennzoil.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Why anyone would service or operate an under warranty vehicle outside of the factory specifications is beyond me. In doing so, one assumes all responsibility. It's just that simple. If you expect someone else to assume responsibility in the event of a failure, you absolutely must follow their recommendations or you don't have a leg to stand on................

My God, the Subaru fans all think they are smarter than the guys in Japan who engineered the stuff. Manual says 5w30? Phooey!-)

Pimp Dawg the Flat-Brimmed Bro Tuner in NASIOC (the forum) says 20/50 cuz, racecar. The lemmings put in 20/50 - tune it to detonation, and get mad when it breaks- it's NEVER the tuner's fault.

If they can alter it, they will. You should see the Voodoo and Old Wive's tales those guys swear by..

rjp

[dewolf]

As long as the oil meets BMW specs that's all that matters.

BMW Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org

[unclebilly]

More of this Dodge tranny issue - the lubrication slot for this wasnt exactly small but it was restrictive enough that viscous oils couldn't get the the earing in sufficient quantities for lubrication and cooling.

That pitting was crazy.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Was the lesson not to buy extended warranties or to use synthetic oil?

I'm thinking it was: Don't use the local "quick lube" for your high-dollar Bee Emm Dubya.

I'd say you open yourself up to a much higher probability of (potential warranty-voiding) mistakes by doing so IMO.
Wrong oil (dino vs. syn, wrong weight, etc.), wrong oil level, wrong filter, no filter change at all, no drain plug washer, loose drain plug, wrong drain plug torque, stripped drain plug/bung threads, etc...

Factory warranty = No brainer, take it to the dealer.

Aftermarket warranty = Read the fine print, and take it to the dealer, or if allowed, a reputable marque-specific indy shop for service, at the specified intervals.

Granted, the same mistakes can happen at the dealer or indy shop, but I'd say the chances are much lower than at most "quick lube" joints.
In theory, the techs are better trained/more experienced, and they know the cars in question much better. The concern over using the correct oil and/or filters is largely mitigated, as is the use of improper tools/methods/etc.. YMMV...

[asphaltgambler]

Fred - my experience with BMW engines, especially the Valve-Tronics of that era are very very durable. I would not automatically assume or go straight to the use of improper oil.

Something or someone caused that engine to fail..........................................my opinion.

Example: A few years back when I worked for an indy BMW dealer, they sold a nice low mileage M3 that came back on the hook later with a rod hanging out of the side. New owner was irate, said we sold him pile of s**t. It did have the remaining factory warranty on it.

Before we made any assumptions, we scanned the ECM recent memory with the BMW scan tool and found the engine RPM's were @9200+ before engine failure. Well something or someone caused the engine to go well beyond the rev limiter.........................................li ke a missed shift into say 1st gear when red-line power-shifting to 3rd.

We printed that info out and the service writer confronted him.............................................he finally admitted that's exactly what happened......................

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by asphaltgambler

Before we made any assumptions, we scanned the ECM recent memory with the BMW scan tool and found the engine RPM's were @9200+ before engine failure.

Beat me to it. I was just about to edit my post when I saw yours. Anyway, good call.

I'd check it for over-revs. Should tell you RPMs as well as the total number of incidents.

[asphaltgambler]

BTW you're only going to find that information with the BMW factory scan tool or an Autologic..............

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Tobra

I quite simply do not believe that there is enough of a difference between synthetic, which is just modified dyno oil, and regular dyno oil to precipitate this catastrophic failure.

That is absolutely not the issue here. No way the motor failed because of the different oil that was used. We all know that. So does the underwriter on the extended warranty.

Originally Posted by Tobra

An extended warranty is essentially an insurance policy. Insurance companies are not in the business of paying claims. They exist to collect premiums and find ways not to pay on claims. No way do they pay on this, despite the fact that it is incumbent on them proving that his failure to use synthetic oil was the cause of this. They guy at the oil change shop is who the owner will end up giving the stink eye.

All they have to prove is that he did not use the specified oil. No judge or jury in a civil case will ever delve into this beyond that. The underwriter will simply seek to pack a jury with soccer moms and poindexters who have no idea. "Wrong" oil? Case closed.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

My God, the Subaru fans all think they are smarter than the guys in Japan who engineered the stuff. Manual says 5w30? Phooey!-)

Pimp Dawg the Flat-Brimmed Bro Tuner in NASIOC (the forum) says 20/50 cuz, racecar. The lemmings put in 20/50 - tune it to detonation, and get mad when it breaks- it's NEVER the tuner's fault.

If they can alter it, they will. You should see the Voodoo and Old Wive's tales those guys swear by..

rjp

I run Rotella T6 in my WRX, and it is within spec for the range of oils specified. There are a lot of reasons why I use it. So do a lot of Corvette guys.

The point is, the oil in my WRX is not below specification. The oil in the BMW might be, and yes, that can be a problem.

By the way, I had a tune done on my WRX because the stock tune on certain model years is known to run lean. There are some very knowledgeable people on NASIOC, and some very well documented threads that baseline information. I know some of them as professionals, and I trust their judgement. I'm not sure what your qualifications are to judge them. I personally trust them a whole lot more than some guy at Jiffy Lube, if you see what I am saying.

[fastfredracing]

Fudge, I lost internet all day at work , I had to actually do work the whole day without logging in here. It was awful, I would not recommend trying it .
I kind of agree with you Ashpalt . Something seemed off with the oil change guy, I am wondering if he put in 5 quarts and ran it . The information center did show the oil as full however when I checked.
John is an older guy, the car is an auto, I really doubt there was an over rev, but you never know .....
You probably see a lot more of them then I do, but I also never see engine failures on these series cars . Especially lower end This is a loud , nasty good old fashioned rod knock.
He came by tonight to give me printouts of the oil change history from the quick lube. I had also done one, and another was done at the dealer . So we have the last 4 . Hopefully they don't dig too deep into the receipts . He told me to just submit them and let the cards fall where they may .

[Steve Carlton]

The dealer who sold the warranty has more leverage than anybody to get the warranty company to pay on the claim. The warranty company doesn't want to lose the dealer's business. One could make the argument that the non-synthetic oil every 6K is irrelevant. Customer was stupid, no doubt of that, as well as the Jiffy Jerk.