Tesla worth more than FORD?

[red-beard]

Seriously? WSJ today

By TIM HIGGINS and CHRISTINA ROGERS
Updated April 3, 2017 1:44 p.m. ET
Elon Musk has steered past Henry Ford in the minds of investors, the latest sign that the auto industry is undergoing a seismic shift.

Tesla Inc., TSLA +6.79%, the upstart Silicon Valley electric-car maker run by Mr. Musk, has overtaken Ford Motor Co., the automotive pioneer that is exactly 100 years older, as the second-largest U.S. auto maker by stock-market value.

Shares in Tesla were up 4.6% at $291.17 midday Monday, pushing the California auto maker’s market capitalization to $47.49 billion, above the Michigan company’s $45 billion, according to FactSet. The next milestone for Tesla is General Motors Co. , valued at roughly $51 billion.

This is so messed up. They can't meet their own production numbers. They build a fraction of the cars from FORD, but they have a higher market cap?!? Seems crazy!

[GG Allin]

Seems like a good time to go short on TSLA. But what the hell do I know.

[onewhippedpuppy]

They can't turn a profit based on product, and the sales of their product are at least partially dependent on government incentives. And they have an aggressive near term product launch plan that requires a massive capital investment to meet the market expectations. I don't think I'd be buying right now.....

[mikehinton]

Apparently, the Kool-Aid is powerful, and effective.

[Pazuzu]

Well, gotta look at the fact that Ford has fallen 25-30% in the past 4 years as well. If you look at the time when Tesla first woke up (mid-2013), Ford would have been $70+ billion at over $18 a share compared to Tesla's $11 billion or so.
Also, Ford has paid almost $3 in dividends since then, if they had reinvested that like Tesla had they would be an extra $11 billion or so in value.

[sammyg2]

It's amazing how much you can accomplish with the gubmint handing you taxpayer's money so fast you have to hire a team of people to count it all.


Let's take away the gubmint subsidies and the free carbon credits and see how long they can keep their scam going.

****ers belong in jail and the mush-heads want to give them medals.

[pksystems]

Federal, Ontario governments to invest $200M into Ford's Canadian operations - Article - BNN

[BeyGon]

I read a little blurb by Lee Iacocca and he was laughing about how over rated their stock is.

[john70t]

Not sure how many Michiganders can afford a Tesla over a Ford.
(some of the Ann Arbor City parking garages and lots do have free EV charging as an incentive which is cool.)

Here is one of a few Tesla charging stations south of town at A2Saline rd x I-94.
The charging connectors may be brand-specific to Tesla but I don't know.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/supercharger-ann-arbor-mi.47306/page-8

[motion]

So much hate. A brilliant innovator comes along and unseats decades of automobile stagnation (we all know what special interest groups, unions, etc have done to squash innovation), and everyone wants to hate. I, for one, welcome paradigm shifts in an industry... especially one that affects all of us. Once energy production starts to shift significantly away from fossil fuels (and it will), all of you will view Musk as the genius that he is. In pretty much his first attempt, he created something far, far superior to what any other large company in history was able to produce. That fact alone is pretty amazing to me.

[Macroni]

Tech valuations are counter intuitive....

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by motion

So much hate. A brilliant innovator comes along and unseats decades of automobile stagnation (we all know what special interest groups, unions, etc have done to squash innovation), and everyone wants to hate. I, for one, welcome paradigm shifts in an industry... especially one that affects all of us. Once energy production starts to shift significantly away from fossil fuels (and it will), all of you will view Musk as the genius that he is. In pretty much his first attempt, he created something far, far superior to what any other large company in history was able to produce. That fact alone is pretty amazing to me.

Good., then you pay for the ****.
If they were a legitimate business I'd be singing their praises, instead of trying to edumacate the kool-aid drinkers high on emotional knee-jerks.

FACT: that company would not exist without tax-payer subsidies.
FACT: the only reason they have anything closely resembling profits is because the state of kalifornia gives them counttless millions in carbon credits every year that they in turn sell to other companies, and keep the $$$$$$$$.
If that isn't a scam I don't know what is.
I can't even get a straight answer as to how many millions they get per year scott free. 20? 50? 100 million? The story changes depending on what you read or who you talk to. But it's more than enough to keep building and getting more incentives.
This is not about the technology. It's about holding a gun to our heads, making all of us put money in his pocket for NOTHING!

But just keep kissing his shoes, now that steve jobs is gone people probably need another faux-hero.



I saw that steve jobs movie the other day BTW, what a POS he really was.

Never did a damn thing in his life but **** up other people's lives and take credit for other people's hard work while he treated them, like ****.
He was a genius too.

[motion]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Good., then you pay for the ****.
If they were a legitimate business I'd be singing their praises, instead of trying to edumacate the kool-aid drinkers high on emotional knee-jerks.

FACT: that company would not exist without tax-payer subsidies.
FACT: the only reason they have anything closely resembling profits is because the state of kalifornia gives them counttless millions in carbon credits every year that they in turn sell to other companies, and keep the $$$$$$$$.
If that isn't a scam I don't know what is.
I can't even get a straight answer as to how many millions they get per year scott free. 20? 50? 100 million? The story changes depending on what you read or who you talk to. But it's more than enough to keep building and getting more incentives.
This is not about the technology. It's about holding a gun to our heads, making all of us put money in his pocket for NOTHING!

But just keep kissing his shoes, now that steve jobs is gone people probably need another faux-hero.



I saw that steve jobs movie the other day BTW, what a POS he really was.

Never did a damn thing in his life but **** up other people's lives and take credit for other people's hard work while he treated them, like ****.
He was a genius too.

You're right, Steve Jobs was a genius. He changed countless lives for the better. His products were revolutionary and set the gold standard. We all now benefit with general overall improvement in other products.

The same applies to Musk. If he is being subsidized by CA taxpayers, in the future you will thank him for the simple fact that the timeline to quality, electric powered vehicles with great quality, performance and range was brought to market much quicker than would have occurred otherwise. This has a trickle down effect for all future vehicles.

You are just angry at everyone, aren't ya, Sammy?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by motion

So much hate. A brilliant innovator comes along and unseats decades of automobile stagnation (we all know what special interest groups, unions, etc have done to squash innovation), and everyone wants to hate. I, for one, welcome paradigm shifts in an industry... especially one that affects all of us. Once energy production starts to shift significantly away from fossil fuels (and it will), all of you will view Musk as the genius that he is. In pretty much his first attempt, he created something far, far superior to what any other large company in history was able to produce. That fact alone is pretty amazing to me.

For a smart guy, that's a pretty ignorant statement. Without subsidies to both Tesla and Tesla buyers the company would not exist. Even with said subsidies they are at a huge net loss since inception. Not a good business model.

[sammyg2]

Here's your "real" company:

In Q3 2016 Tesla sold $139 million worth of ZEV credits.

Tesla May Have Hit Its Peak With Selling Electric Credits

Over a years time at that rate it would add up to over HALF A BILLION A YEAR from the state of California (out of my pocket), FOR FREE!!!!!!!!!!!
That does not include the $7000 per vehicle gubmint rebate ad a whole bunch of other incentives.

At the same time, musk is petitioning the state of california legislature to tighten emissions for everyone else even more. Just so tesla's carbon credits would be worth ..... bigger piles of millions.

But I'm just a hater.

[Nickshu]

Worth more than Ford only because of taxpayer subsidies.

Tesla...Cars built by a billionare, for millionares, paid for by the American middle-class taxpayer.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

At the same time, musk is petitioning the state of california legislature to tighten emissions for everyone else even more. Just so tesla's carbon credits would be worth ..... bigger piles of millions.

But I'm just a hater.

Meanwhile, up to a quarter of California's air pollution is from China.

Stay safe out there.
Don't get pulled over and have your own vehicle and property confiscated, towed, and impounded on the side of the road at a moments notice.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by motion

You're right, Steve Jobs was a genius. He changed countless lives for the better. His products were revolutionary and set the gold standard. We all now benefit with general overall improvement in other products.

The same applies to Musk. If he is being subsidized by CA taxpayers, in the future you will thank him for the simple fact that the timeline to quality, electric powered vehicles with great quality, performance and range was brought to market much quicker than would have occurred otherwise. This has a trickle down effect for all future vehicles.

You are just angry at everyone, aren't ya, Sammy?

What did steve jobs make?
You said his products, he must have made something. Maybe he came up with ideas, like that cube joke? He admitted that was a scam to get back into apple.

Wozniak and co. made that company, they made the products, jobs just took credit for them. Remember when he pushed macintosh so hard? He said they'd sell a million units in 90 days.
They sold 50,000.
That mistake nearly killed that company and it was all on jobs.

Why don't people bow to Woz? He deserves it.
Jobs stole or made up everything and the uninformed love him. Woz was the real genius. He and his team made the products.

I am only angry at people who deny the truth.
I like the truth. I think the truth is something to be respected, revered.
Not to be discarded and thrown to the curb when it conflicts with feel-good fantasy.

[Craig T]

Originally Posted by gg allin

seems like a good time to go short on tsla. But what the hell do i know.

+1

[Craig T]

Originally Posted by motion

So much hate. A brilliant innovator comes along and unseats decades of automobile stagnation (we all know what special interest groups, unions, etc have done to squash innovation), and everyone wants to hate. I, for one, welcome paradigm shifts in an industry... especially one that affects all of us. Once energy production starts to shift significantly away from fossil fuels (and it will), all of you will view Musk as the genius that he is. In pretty much his first attempt, he created something far, far superior to what any other large company in history was able to produce. That fact alone is pretty amazing to me.

I agree with everything you said, with one caveat. The Tesla is as amazing as his reusable rocket that lands back on the barge. He's a genius for sure. ...But Tesla's #2 ranking is based on market capitalization only, not earnings, not production numbers, just wild stock market speculation. If Musk gets the infrastructure in place nationally to charge anywhere, and he can deal with the eventual push-back from state tax collectors (Tesla owners don't buy gas and therefor do not pay the gasoline taxes that maintain roads and bridges. It's already hitting the radar screen in Sacramento), and Tesla can turn several profitable quarters in a row without government subsidies, then this wild valuation will catch up with itself. Right now?...Irrational exuberance.