"Blue Paint" Engines

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Tobra

They have a duty to disclose they are selling a new car with a rebuilt engine, even if it is factory rebuilt. If they get sued by someone in Texas over this, Deceptive Trade Practice statute would apply and they very likely would be shelling out $45K on a $15K rebuild.

Failure rate is not the issue.

Of course. But "rebuilt" indicates it was in service, accumulated some miles or hours on it, and was subsequently "rebuilt". Internal to the manufacturing process, prior to the sale of the unit, they can take it apart and put it back together as many times as they want, using whatever components they want. Not just motors or car components, either - any manufactured item. Cell phones, refrigerators, airplanes, whatever - until the manufacturer presents it as "finished" to their satisfaction, they can do whatever the hell they want with it.

Granted, some industries have very, very strict record keeping and conformance requirements that have been put in place by the manufacturers as a means to ensure quality and conformity, and many have regulatory agencies that have likewise put their own record keeping and quality assurance procedures in place. Even in the strictest such environment (and I worked for 37 years in one of the very strictest, most regulated industries extant), nothing that has not left the factory as "complete" and "ready for delivery" would ever qualify as "remanufactured", no matter how many times we took it apart, reworked it, replaced components, and reassembled it prior to declaring it as good to go.

So, yeah - if Porsche were installing once delivered, used but rebuilt motors into new cars (extracted from totaled cars, test mules with some miles on them, or what have you), they would need to disclose that. That is not what they are doing.

[rusnak]

So is there any sort of pattern yet of failure for the blue paint engines?

Year?
Components?
Type of failure, mileage, etc?

I guess I should crawl under the Cayman and start looking for blue paint. Yeeeeshh..

[911_Dude]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I have to tell you guys (after reading this thread and the referenced Planet 9 thread with great interest) that I smell another blown-way-out-of-proportion internet panic. It has all of the ingredients - the accused company in denial it's doing anything wrong, folks "in the know" at that company saying otherwise, reputable mechanics having done a great deal of research, and on and on. Quite the nefarious scheme, replete with all of the intrigue requisite for such.

Bottom line is, the failure rate on newer Porsche engines is so small as to be insignificant (I believe they still lead the J.D. Powers surveys on owner satisfaction, and have for some time). Unless, of course, it is yours and it's out of warranty - then it is very significant to you, the owner, and looking at a $15k bill, we all want to see another answer. Misdeeds at the manufacturer are the best - they may gain you a free repair, if ever proven.

Now if it was yours from new, and you are therefore knowledgeable about its history, care, and upkeep, that's one thing - assuming it's been well treated and cared for. If it's used, even with the ability to kinda sorta evaluate its history both from maintenance records and stored in the car electronic records (over revs, etc.), face it - you still don't know how the thing was really treated. You are buying a performance car that may have been "ridden hard and put away wet" as a matter of course, or you may be buying one that was treated respectfully. You just don't know. A "premature" engine failure on such a car - and I would not categorize one failing with over 100k on the clock as such - has always been kind of the lotto we play when purchasing used toys of this sort.

As far as Porsche "remanufacturing" an engine that failed any part of its testing - why the hell not? I think any manufacturer that does not utilize the good components from their rejected assemblies - motors, trannies, brakes, suspension - whatever - would have to be insane. Would it trouble any of you to know that in large commercial aircraft manufacturing, the re-use of good components from a failed or out of spec assembly is common practice? Come on, think about this for a moment. I suppose this might speak to the less than mechanically inclined, to know that their motor was partially assembled with the good parts of a "bad" motor - they think they are getting a less than top quality unit. Hogwash. These are all zero mile components. "Remanufactured" sounds ominous, like a high mileage rebuilt motor, at least to the folks who don't understand manufacturing.

So, yeah - seems like much ado about nothing to me. Another perfect "conspiracy theory" that those staring a $15k bill in the face really want to believe. Some big evil corporation put their motor together knowing it would fail. Out of warranty, of course - their predictive modeling can nail its service life that closely to where the company knows it is safe... Really? Does anyone really believe all of that? I suppose...

Apparently, no one wants to hear that its "just blown out of proportion". Come on, get with the program. Its way more fun to gin up conspiracies and such.

[sc_rufctr]

I keep reading "Rarely happens" & yet there are companies all over the world "repairing" these failed engines!

If there are so few of them that fail it would have made financial sense for Porsche to replace them regardless of ownership history, age or miles traveled to maintain their reputation of excellence!

Considering how Porsche price their new cars these should be near perfect at delivery and last well beyond 200,000 miles without any major issues. (320,000 Km)

My supposedly "crappy" 1994 VR6 Golf has traveled 340,000 km and I've never had an issue with the internals of the engine! There are issues with the engine but I consider this acceptable considering the mileage... Noisy vale train and worn valve guide seals (blows smoke on start up).

I've only replaced the starter motor and it still has the original alternator that hasn't been touched. And most of the radiator hoses are original!
The gearbox is still prefect but I did a clutch job at 160,000 Km. I've also had to replace the in tank fuel pump.

[enzo1]

Originally Posted by Brando

Then I see the new Miata MX-5 RF or Fiat 124 Abarth for reasonable prices and think "why go back?".

[VincentVega]

I like that, if I fit I'd have one.

I wonder about the water pumpers. Who doesnt know they have 'issues'? They have depreciated so much at least in part to the engine issues. I dont think it means a thing to compare a modern water cooled 911 to any previous gen, different animal. Look at the #'s and it seems like a small %. Thing is I know of more than a handful of guys that lost at 1 or more engines. Not abused, ex rental, race cars or whatever. Happens way too much to cars with low miles, avg miles, babied miles... Cant say that about any other make I can think of. They are great fun to drive but how can you be surprised when something happens? Stinks no matter and not something I wish on anyone.

OP - I hope its just a lifter something less than it sounds. Good luck, sorry to hear about your issue.

[Jeff Alton]

I don't know the history/accuracy of the blue paint tales. But I can say that cylinder scoring is quite common. I would say more common than IMSB failures. We are rebuilding a few scored cylinder motors each year now, and only one IMSB failure (which had an aftermarket bearing- go figure).

We have another 2006 cayman S coming shortly with cylinder scoring, a 997 coming as well shortly. My wife just called a local used car dealer about a 2008 Cayman they had only to find out it has a scored cylinder. I have personally owned 2 cars with scored cylinders (2008 Cayman S and 2005 997 S).

If you are buying one of these cars and purchasing an aftermarket warranty, please make sure the coverage amount per claim will cover the engine rebuild cost. We have seen a couple cases where a client thought he was covered only to find out his warranty did not cover even half of the cost...

[Tobra]

If you say so Mr Higgins. I disagree.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Tobra

If you say so Mr Higgins. I disagree.

Of course. Based on absolutely zero manufacturing experience or expertise. But, after all, that is what the internet is for - even doctors can be manufacturing experts.

[rusnak]

Sorry for the dumb question, but what causes cylinder scoring? Would this be the same for example on a lawnmower or chain saw? Does this occur more often in the water cooled cars? I can't seriously remember cylinder scoring being an issue in the old days.

[Tobra]

Brilliant response, no seriously, it is.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Jeff Alton

I don't know the history/accuracy of the blue paint tales. But I can say that cylinder scoring is quite common. I would say more common than IMSB failures. We are rebuilding a few scored cylinder motors each year now, and only one IMSB failure (which had an aftermarket bearing- go figure).

We have another 2006 cayman S coming shortly with cylinder scoring, a 997 coming as well shortly. My wife just called a local used car dealer about a 2008 Cayman they had only to find out it has a scored cylinder. I have personally owned 2 cars with scored cylinders (2008 Cayman S and 2005 997 S).

If you are buying one of these cars and purchasing an aftermarket warranty, please make sure the coverage amount per claim will cover the engine rebuild cost. We have seen a couple cases where a client thought he was covered only to find out his warranty did not cover even half of the cost...

Very disconcerting but why am I not surprised?

[sc_rufctr]

Sorry Jeff but once again...

Considering how Porsche price their new cars these should be near perfect at delivery and last well beyond 200,000 miles without any major issues. (320,000 Km)

I have no problem with Porsche "remanufacturing" an engine but it should be as good as any other.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Sorry Jeff but once again...

Considering how Porsche price their new cars these should be near perfect at delivery and last well beyond 200,000 miles without any major issues. (320,000 Km)

I have no problem with Porsche "remanufacturing" an engine but it should be as good as any other.

Peter, while I totally agree, name one premium car company that this applies to. Mercedes used to build to a standard, and built cars that last generations. Now they are full of gizmos that might make it through your warranty period if you're lucky. If you want a car to go 200k without issues, you'd be better off buying a Camry, F150, or Miata.

[Joe Bob]

After seeing and hearing about Brando's experience, it has validated my skepticism on any water cooled Porsche. Like Monty Python's rabbit, RUNAWAY!

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by motion

My wife was in the market for a car a few months ago. She agreed on a 997.2 with PDK, and I set out looking for one. I have an investor-oriented mind and don't like throwing away good money, so I found that anything that was only a few years old with a remaining warranty was going to have a very, very steep depreciation curve. In all likelihood, that meant losing $30K or more over time on this car. I could lessen the hit by going for an early 997.2, and looked at a few, but in the end I decided I was uncomfortable with owning a water cooled Porsche out of warranty. Too many variables and unknowns.

We went with a new Mercedes, so now we can enjoy the car for 4 years without worry.

Porsche is no different then BMW, Range Rover, Jag, Aston, etc. Its a roll of the dice. You're a blink of the eye away from a $10K + repair bill.

Moving forward, we're only going to get into a Porsche for her if its new or near new and comes with a full factory warranty. I don't see that day coming any time soon

Wait.... you were worried about depreciation so you bought a brand new Mercedes?

Does not compute.

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by CJFusco

Just out of curiosity, what were the symptoms of your failure?

It sounds like IMS and bore scoring are ruled out in the case of my car's strange engine noise. Most people listening to my car would say it's a lifter, but apparently the lifters in these engines don't frequently fail, and cylinder issues are often misdiagnosed as noisy lifters, so who knows.

Blackstone oil analysis came back clean. There was no metal on my magnetic drain plug.

Automotive Associates will be looking at the car on Monday. I think they plan on pulling the sump to look for debris and then scoping the cylinders. Who knows: it might end up being nothing. But I wouldn't bet on it.

CJ. All of those things are good signs. Has anyone hooked it up to a scan tool and checked timing deviation?

[rusnak]

IMS failure is sort of it's own separate problem.

I think for conversation sake, it's helpful to separate the engine failures and think of them distinctly.

I was thinking about cylinder scoring, and wondering if Porsche simply do not account enough for engine cooling. Especially with all of the accessories hanging off the motor, lack of any ventilation, sound encapsulation, design to prevent water intrusion, use of 0-xx weight oil, etc etc.

On my Cayman, I didn't even put 3,000 miles on it before I added a center radiator and learned how to change the coolant. I'm wondering if there is a way to upgrade the engine compartment cooling fan, and have it stay on longer. I'm thinking that the "normal" cars' cooling systems are being pushed to the limit, and the more GT style cars get the trick cooling bits, which work much better, and when an engine blows on the track everyone just sort of shrugs and writes it off.

[motion]

Originally Posted by porsche4life

Wait.... you were worried about depreciation so you bought a brand new Mercedes?

Does not compute.

You're going to lose out on any luxury car less than 6-8 years old, and I accept that. We'll lose around $18K on the Mercedes over 4 years. I couldn't picture a similar scenario with a newer 997. More like double that.

[motion]

Originally Posted by rusnak

IMS failure is sort of it's own separate problem.

I think for conversation sake, it's helpful to separate the engine failures and think of them distinctly.

I was thinking about cylinder scoring, and wondering if Porsche simply do not account enough for engine cooling. Especially with all of the accessories hanging off the motor, lack of any ventilation, sound encapsulation, design to prevent water intrusion, use of 0-xx weight oil, etc etc.

On my Cayman, I didn't even put 3,000 miles on it before I added a center radiator and learned how to change the coolant. I'm wondering if there is a way to upgrade the engine compartment cooling fan, and have it stay on longer. I'm thinking that the "normal" cars' cooling systems are being pushed to the limit, and the more GT style cars get the trick cooling bits, which work much better, and when an engine blows on the track everyone just sort of shrugs and writes it off.

I'm just guessing here, but I doubt Porsche is trying to compete with Toyota in the engine longevity metric. They may very well be happy to engineer motors that are good for around 130K miles, on average. Maybe somewhere in the middle ground between Toyota and say, Ferrari.