When to go over the boss's head?

[Macroni]

Given you like the job, I would say excellent outcome. I would document all interactions with your boss with a friendly email. Especially, requests for additional training or sales support.

Now focus on your individual performance and the future with the organization will take care of itself.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

American boss is probably on his way out but doesn't know it, yet.

Absent any additional amplifying information, I agree.

Originally Posted by Macroni

Given you like the job, I would say excellent outcome. I would document all interactions with your boss with a friendly email. Especially, requests for additional training or sales support.

Concur.

He added that his wife told him my American boss was no longer welcome at their house and that HR had been notified immediately the following morning. Obviously, nothing came of that and I didn't press for more info on it.

Ouch.

[Rick Lee]

Things got exciting again last week.

Q2 was a big fat goose egg for the US division, as in $0 in revenue. In April our website was relaunched and it absolutely sunk us. That was our main source of leads and they went from 7-10 per week to one at most per week. My American boss cc's me on his weekly reports to the Germans and those reports have a lot of zeroes in them. So I asked him on one of our rare calls if he was getting any heat from the Germans over that. He said not really, that they knew the website relaunch still had some bugs to work out and were not blaming US sales for it.

In other news, I closed three deals in Q1, all of which started as free trials. No one else in this company had ever closed a free trial in 11 years. I did it three times in one month. So I was in a good spot for a while. Not anymore.

Last week my American boss called, said he had heard from the big German boss, the one who created this job for me, said I need to come up with XX in the next month or "we'll have to part ways." WTF? It felt like a gut punch and was totally out of nowhere. I said, "Is this a performance improvement plan?" He replied, "It's just the way it is." That was eight days ago. Since then no document, no email, no mention of it again.

Right after that call, I Skyped with a German co-worker I'm close with and asked about the process for such a thing. I said in the US if you get put on a PIP, it's usually code for "you will be fired in a month and you need to find another job right away." I said I couldn't believe such a thing could be communicated casually and verbally, especially in a German company.

German co-worker replied that my name is golden over there and, if anyone is on the hot seat, it's my American boss and he's likely putting pressure on me to help him in his own PIP. He's been the boss for six years with nothing but losses or break even, and he's probably finally being held to account for it.

Now we're all getting ready for the big annual meeting in Germany next month and travel is being booked. I'll be very curious to see whose travel gets booked soon and whose gets booked last minute.

[Macroni]

First do they have an HR rep? If yes, contact for clarity of your circumstance.

If not call American Boss for clarity. No clarity call German Boss. You are entitled.

What makes this job so special?

[Rick Lee]

As I'm pretty sure this is my American boss's own thing and he's in more trouble than I am, I can't force the matter with him or anyone else. Doing so would be the nuclear option. Alerting HR to the matter would definitely make things worse for one, if not both, of us. German boss is on vacation for another week, then on business travel in Asia. Sure, I could email him, but that would also go right back to my American boss and not make anything better. I think I'm just going to knock these goals out, which I can probably do, and then figure out a way to discuss this in person in Germany.

It'd be hard to explain what makes this job so special, but it's the first one I've really felt at home at in well over 10 years, the kind of job not many other offers could make me leave and a large part of the work is stuff I daydreamed about doing when I was in high school. So I'm trying to hang onto it.

[masraum]

I'm no expert, but I've heard that it's REALLY hard to get fired in Germany, but I'm not sure how that relates to an American employee in America that's working for a German company.

I have to say that when I read the first part of your post, my first thought was "it's the boss making crap up."

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

As I'm pretty sure this is my American boss's own thing and he's in more trouble than I am, I can't force the matter with him or anyone else. Doing so would be the nuclear option. Alerting HR to the matter would definitely make things worse for one, if not both, of us. German boss is on vacation for another week, then on business travel in Asia. Sure, I could email him, but that would also go right back to my American boss and not make anything better. I think I'm just going to knock these goals out, which I can probably do, and then figure out a way to discuss this in person in Germany.

It'd be hard to explain what makes this job so special, but it's the first one I've really felt at home at in well over 10 years, the kind of job not many other offers could make me leave and a large part of the work is stuff I daydreamed about doing when I was in high school. So I'm trying to hang onto it.

It's great to hear that you've found a job that you enjoy/love that much. And it sounds like you really have a good rapport with the important boss. I suspect, at least, I hope, that you outlast the current boss and things get better after that.

Do you think you'd like to move into that position or would you prefer to stay in the position that you're in?

[tabs]

The only time you go over the Boss's head is if he is Pedophile, about to go Postal or Pilifering from the company. Otherwise man up and take it like a man... It is a personal problem.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by masraum

It's great to hear that you've found a job that you enjoy/love that much. And it sounds like you really have a good rapport with the important boss. I suspect, at least, I hope, that you outlast the current boss and things get better after that.

Do you think you'd like to move into that position or would you prefer to stay in the position that you're in?

To add some more spice to this, my German boss asked me back in Oct. and again in Feb. if I had any friends who might want a sales job in the US. Both bosses and I all happened to be together in Orlando both times, and my American boss was not real thrilled by the idea.

I have a close friend and former co-worker, who also happens to speak German, who lives in Orlando. Both times I asked him and he said he was just too fat and happy at his current job. Well, that ended about two weeks ago, when he was let go and then asked me if we were still hiring. So I emailed the German boss, who was on his way out the door for vacation. He replied to have my friend get in touch. My friend was called for a Skype interview the next day, which he says went great. The HR boss told him during the interview that, if he were to be hired, he'd have to go to Germany for training. That's odd because I had to go to SC, where my American boss lives, for training. So it looks like my American boss would not be involved in the new guy's training. Hmmmm.

I may be having delusions of grandeur, but in my perfect scenario, my friend would get hired and he and I would be tasked with turning things around in the US, left totally on our own to figure it out, but with whatever support we needed, and then held accountable. The way the scheduling is looking, the only way this thing can come together is by hiring my friend and having him go to Germany a week or two before the rest of us show up for our annual event. Then, as soon as we get back, we have to prep for a trade show in St. Louis. My buddy and I are experts at the trade show booth thing. I just don't know what's going to happen.

[Alan A]

Originally Posted by masraum

I'm no expert, but I've heard that it's REALLY hard to get fired in Germany, but I'm not sure how that relates to an American employee in America that's working for a German company.

I have to say that when I read the first part of your post, my first thought was "it's the boss making crap up."

It doesn’t.
US rules apply afaik.

[RANDY P]

Your friend didn't hear any positive feedback about you? That usually comes up in the discussion.
Maybe you'll get insight on what the company plans by end of year. That should tell you everything you need to know.

rjp

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

... he's probably finally being held to account for it...

Give your German overlords some credit.

This is an internal political issue.

They already know the deal and if this somehow does not work out in your favor there is not much you can do to swing it anyway.

I spent 15 years at one company in an industry that was feast or famine.

They hired 13 VP's for me to report to during that time even though I answered directly to the Chairman.

Around number 8 or 9 I asked why they kept on hiring me "bosses" and why they did not just give me the gig.

The answer was basically, we hire people so we have people to fire when the numbers are bad and if we give you the title then we have to fire you and that's not part of the plan.

True story, the VP who first hired there me actually fired me before he hired me. A few years after they fired him they sent me to rehire him. 3 months later they had me fire him.

I fired my own boss after I hired him

It's just Corporate politics, don't try to make sense of it, keep doing your job and you'll be OK.

[KFC911]

Best of luck Rick....life is too short for this kind of nonsense from my perspective. If you are a star performer...then "fix" it or move on....it's your career and life....YMMV. The problem is your American boss....what are you gonna do about it? This thread is almost a year old....

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

Your friend didn't hear any positive feedback about you? That usually comes up in the discussion.

I have never met or even spoken with the HR boss who interviewed my friend, other than on a conference call last summer. She only knows me by name. I know her boss pretty well, but that's not who interviewed my friend. Again, when the big German boss interviewed me, the only questions were, 1) How much do you need? and 2) When can you start? I didn't go through HR at all. He just had an offer letter printed up and then booked a flight for me.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by KC911

The problem is your American boss....what are you gonna do about it?

What can I do about it, other than play the game, do the best I can and keep my head down?

So we had one bad quarter. I can't imagine my job would be in jeopardy over one bad quarter, especially after I've been there a year and not had disciplinary issues (like my boss has). AFAIK, when this company lets people go, it's either in their first six month probationary period or after they've done something pretty egregious or unethical. I know folks have been canned after it was found out they were doing work for clients off the books and getting paid directly. But that's not something I could do, even if I wanted to. I'm not a technical guy. And what company doesn't have some level of political BS? I'm being pretty honest with myself in that, other than some personality conflict between my boss and myself, I haven't seen or been on the receiving end of the slightest hint of political BS here. And that's a real nice change from a lot of previous jobs.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

They already know the deal and if this somehow does not work out in your favor there is not much you can do to swing it anyway.

This is cold comfort, but probably true.

[fintstone]

Sounds like my job for the last 7 years. It ball is in management's court. They may well be inclined to keep things at status quo for whatever reason...forever. If that is the case...and you love the job, your best bet is to keep everyone happy. Over the years, I have been brought in as a change agent and after the change, even if it fixes the problems and the organization is running like clockwork, there are enough bad feelings...that I was considered toxic. I have taken down numerous superiors who were incompetent...but there is always a cost. Even if their management asked me to take them down, in the end, either their bosses were afraid of me (and my ruthlessness) or they realized that many of the remaining employees would have difficulty with the aftermath.

I have changed a bit with old age and experience. My last three jobs before this one, I just concentrated on making my boss and my organization win...in spite of themselves (I was #2). All were a bit over their head in the job and I was the more senior (older), more experienced. We did succeed, and everyone did well and got promoted (even loser bosses). They were nice people, but could never achieve the same level of success without my help...and they eventually settled in to some sort of job that suited their skills/personality. Most of the rest of the team eventually got promoted into better jobs elsewhere due to their work and the team's performance.

In situations where I took the immediate boss/bosses out (and if you take a shot at the king, you had better kill him as already posted)...it has never ended with me staying there happily ever after...even though I have often leveraged that success elsewhere. Bosses are well connected and are often queried when you apply for a new job. Some can even blackball you across an industry if not an area/region. The younger you are and the thinner your resume, the easier it is to cast you as someone that is disloyal and not a team player...or lazy and ineffective. Without a long history and huge sales record or unless you are a nationally known expert resource, you have little to justify you existence in the company or any other). My advice is that if you like it there...play the good, loyal soldier to all and drag the entire group across the goal line. Your company/organization will recognize you and your work will not go unrewarded. If they know your immediate boss is the weak link, they will appreciate your loyalty and be more likely to allow you to move up eventually...taking shots at him or perceived disloyalty will make them hesitant to ever put you in the same position with them (as you might do the same).

In my current position, I have just done the best work I could..in spite of my manager. I have used his weakness to my advantage and accomplished more than I would have under a different one. It has been frustrating as he has kept me and others on my team from the success and recognition we might have had initially, but over time, we have accomplished more than if I had torn down the organization. Since the next level of management really does not understand what we do...it long went unrecognized...but enough success leads to a rising tide that lifts all ships. Now I receive a great deal more recognition for my work despite my boss's inability to garner resources/recognition of our work (as eventually everyone figures out which are the strongest athletes) and have been receiving national-level awards. The advocacy comes from his bosses, but he does not fight it (and to some extent, encourages it)...as he sees it as part of his success. I will be able to leverage these into the ability to accomplish/achieve more.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

What can I do about it, other than play the game, do the best I can and keep my head down?

....

Not sure Rick. All of us have had different experiences, careers, etc. in totally different corporate cultures. I've been in the position where I loved my job, the technical side, but hated the corporate bs...so I put up with it....to a point. If/when you reach that point....you'll know. Good luck man....just keep yer head up, while keeping it down

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

They already know the deal and if this somehow does not work out in your favor there is not much you can do to swing it anyway.

Thought I'd give an update, since I can't stop thinking about SM's comment above, but then also am trying to be honest with myself and not just blame company politics on something that might be within my control.

Anyway, I'm just about at the goal the boss gave me, and still have two weeks to go. I'm probably already there, but just need to document some things a little better and nail a few more things down to the next stage in the sale before handing it off to the boss. But reaching these goals could sink me because they can make my boss look bad. And I'm very concerned my work will be subject to his interpretation, not a firm set of written guidelines.

I'm calling all the dead leads he couldn't close from the last three years. Not knocking him - 99% of our leads are tire kickers. Calling a list like this sounds like thankless, trench cold-calling, but everyone I've reached has been so friendly, and some have turned into red hot leads again. Two I got very re-interested in the last week each required about 20 calls, emails or texts to get them into a conversation, and both thanked me profusely at the end of our discussions for staying on them and not giving up. And then today I got a verbal close on my second attempt to contact a woman, whom my boss had blown off 18 months ago when she wasn't serious. Ok, maybe these folks weren't ready back when my boss was calling them. But he gave up after the second attempt to get an answer after they'd had a discovery call, demo, etc. There is some real potential in these old leads, but reeling one in to a close could make the boss look bad, even though he'd get a nice commission out of it.

[Rick Lee]

CRAZY UPDATE.

Boss was fired today, I keep my job and now report directly to big German boss. This day has been insane, still cannot process.