Zendalar - what an, um, interesting point of view. On a completely unrelated note, is it possible to have someone mentally committed even if you've never met them?

"Thats right, Sadaam didn't use mustard gas and nerve gas on his people, but our own military did it to sailors to 'see what would happen' back before and during the Vietnam war. Only now is the Defense Dept. admitting this, after many of our own men died while they covered up the truth."

Right you are. Not only that, but the government often tests new chemicals on its people without them knowing. A former head of CIA went public with the fact that during the 1950s, the government put LSD into public drinking water to test the effects... and years later made it illegal to buy, manufacture, own, or use. Any of you out there still convinced that the U.S. is infallable?

Okay, maybe I was too much outta line.

But the point was that most of the people in the middle east listen only to the tyrans that are in the lead. They follow and do what they are told.

Most of the people are really brainwashed making them believe in this paradise after death. This makes them very dangerous enemies, even after the so called war has been "won"


If the war starts, it will never end, because the hatred towards the western countries stays in their hearts. And the people alive now, will tell their children how bad all the western people are.

I am gonna take out most of my previous post because it was....well... Like you said, pretty mental :P

Excellent point.

Never has any country in the history of our planet EVER been able to hold on to a conquered land. Every regime that has invade another and imposed it's will was in the end lost. Not Alexander The Great, Ghengis Khan, Hitler, Napoleon, or the British.

Sun sun DID set on the British empire, and we are a shining example of this, as is many other nations across the world. To think we can just go in, put a puppet dictator in place and not have generations to come hate us, attack us, and make terrorism worse than we have seen, then your not looking at history. And remember - those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Afghanistan is another great example of the problems we soon will face. Most people have forgotten already we still have tens of thousands of troops there. Why? Because people keep trying to kill off the 'new government' we 'gave' to them. The 'president' had to have his personal guards removed and replaced with US green berets because of all the assassination attempts. The Post also ran a nice piece yesterday on how the Northern Aliiance, the group we used as fodder to fight a majority of our war for us, is now talking of rising up against us and the new President. Sound familiar? It's what happened to the Soviets and why they pulled out of Afghanistan years ago after spending billions and having their top of the line army slowly and systamatically dismantled by 'terrorists'.

Oh yeah, we FUNDED those terrorists. Led by Bin Laden, who we personally gave over a billion dollars a year to we fought the soviets without having to fight the soviets. I guess they are only terrorists when they attack America. When our government finds political dissadents, like they now have found in Iraq, and pay them to blow up government installations, thats just encouraging 'the people' to fight for their 'freedom'.

I'm guessing our 'allies' will soon be labeled as 'terrorists' as we will be fighting them soon enough. Once they realize we didn't liberate them just to let them lead themselves, well you can guess what comes next.

Anyone ever do research on Karzai anyhow? Former oil exec from the middle east, strong ties to Halliburton, and long time family friend of Bush. Any more questions about this 'new leader' and why his 'own people' hate him?

The guy they want to 'give' the 'presidency' to in Iraq now is wanted in four countries for fraud, embezzlement, and other great things. However he is a friend of the Bush regime, and also has large holdings in the oil industry.

All this was reported from various news sources, the most frequent being the Washington Post last Monday.

Anyone else see a pattern here?

Do you all think it is easy running the world? There are so many competing interests and points of view it is hard to control events. Nobody wants to go along with the program unless you grease their palms in various ways.... Look at the map people, it does seem Irak is right in the middle doesn't it. If you put US of A troops in the middle you can conrol the region. It is about oil and it isn't.....It's more about geography. We don't want anymore surprises like 911, and the way to stop them is to control the Fundamentalists source of support and that means to control the center....Irak. From their we can put pressure on Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Turkey. Look to the Jordanian King to be a major player in the years to come. The enemy is Islamic fundamentalism, their goal is to reassert the Islamic religion to it's former glory in the 14th century. The World or global economy will collapse and everything that the West takes for granted will be a thing of the past.....your referigrator, Washing Machines, TV's Computers, SUV's, Porsches.....no jobs, no electriciy no gasoline. Get it...Bush is trying to preserve the West's dominance Politically and economically, let us just say the Western way of thought, which is now to say the American way of doing business since the US of A is the 500 lb Gorilla in the world.

tabs: well said!
-Z.

Yes, that was well said, although I don't COMPLETELY agree. You're right, it isn't easy running the world, and you're right it is about protecting the future of our country. What I don't like, however, is how dishonest and underhanded our government goes about doing things.

Now, completely off the subject:
"I'm not gonna buy duct tape because it supports terrorism. Besides, do you really think that they have stronger chemical weapons than LIVING IN NEW JERSEY?!?" - John Stewart

It was mentioned that Bush was AWOL during the Vietnam war. Well its not the first time we've had someone who avoided a war in the oval office. God, I just can't stay out of this thread. Good debate.

hehe! Hey, wait a second: I LIVE IN NEW JERSEY! :mad:

But yeah, we get such a bad rap for the chemicals...etc.

BTW: Why do the trees in Eastern PA lean towards the East? 'Cause Jersey sucks! :)

Now leave my state alone! :D

-Z.

BREAKING NEWS!!!! Saddam Hussein just sent a proposal to the UN, calling for a WORLDWIDE BAN on producing and importing weapons of mass destruction. Perhaps Saddam isn't as 'evil' as the government would like us to think!

Something tells me that the U.S. will be the first country to veto this proposal...

Zoltan - i have been to parts of New Jersey that are downright beautiful. There are many towns that have bans on franchises like McDonalds and Wal-Mart moving in, and it is these very bans that keep the towns clean, safe, and quaint... now, the area of New Jersey bordering NYC, on the other hand is a dump. Literally. It is Manhattan's landfill.

You mean like Jersey City? Worked there for 5 years! :eek:

Regarding Sadam Husein's worldwide ban on WOMD: I call it a smokescreen. Sorry CJFusco, but that man is evil, IMHO, and I cannot take him at face value.

-Z.

From this week's ONION (i know it's a fake newspaper, but still has some damn good social commentary):

'Saddam Enrages Bush With Full Compliance
WASHINGTON, DC—President Bush expressed frustration and anger Monday over a U.N. report stating that Iraqi president Saddam Hussein is now fully complying with weapons inspections. "Enough is enough," a determined Bush told reporters. "We are not fooled by Saddam's devious attempts to sway world opinion by doing everything the U.N. asked him to do. We will not be intimidated into backing down and, if we have any say in the matter, neither will Saddam." Bush added that any further Iraqi attempt to meet the demands of the U.N. or U.S. will be regarded as "an act of war." '

The onion has another great article from the last issue on Ashcroft 'Trimming down the Bill Of Rights to a manageable 3'

Funny stuff.

While we are on the subject of NJ...

Why do people in NYC always seem depressed? The light at the end of their tunnel is New Jersey.

<rimshot>

Back to the original off-topic topic.

I agreed on some level that Bush's actions 'may' be intended to maintain the lifestyle American's are accustom too, but with the world bank and the elimination of the gold standard for currency the senario you described is not possible.

Also, if you look at our country now the middle class is slowly disappearing. I have links to major news sites on that subject as well. Once again, getting rid of the middle class was one of Lenin's goals. It helps define the society better and gives the government more control over the people.

Yes, we do take alot for granted, but our own government is actively working to take these things away from us more than anyone else. Sure, they can't take away electricity, electricity, or things of this nature we may overlook, but with the number of people below the poverty line growing at the fastest rate since the Great Depression, and the middle class dwindling faster than anyone expected, other than the 'basic' things we take for granted, most of the other things in your list will be out of reach for the common American in the next 10 years anyhow.

With technology expanding into new areas and eliminating jobs, expect things to get alot worse before they get better.

Wow, we are now way off topic on the off topic topic.

My point is this, our involvement in the region will not have a drastic effect on our economy one way or another. The only people who will gain financial will be Bush and his cronies at Harken, Halliburton, and Delta Oil.

[Did I mention besides law I also have a degree in economics ;) ]

-S


-S

Right again about the middle-class slowly disappearing, sternn. The term for this is social polarization... you can really tell this is happening in the town I'm from (Bristol, CT): the downtown area is getting more and more run-down every year, crime in that section goes up and up every year (the new Wal-Mart on the town's border surely doesn't help), but the houses in the area "on the hill" gets more expensive every year. Granted, this is a nice section (as every "on the hill" is in almost every town - remember, "poop flows downhill"). The middle class is very nearly gone from Bristol. You're either low-class, upper-middle class (admittedly where I am - my mother is a psychiatrist and pulls in considerable income), or upper-class (a mile or two up the road is the country club, and the houses with their own tennis courts and airstrips/hangars).

I thought that no one has really ever defined middle class? I know the census bureau hasn't.

And no-one has ever really defined the American Dream, either, yet it is referred to constantly.

New Jersey has the most toxic waste dumps per capita.
Los Angeles has the most lawyers per capita.
Know why?

New Jersey had first choice.

Ba bum bum

SmileWavy

Hmmm let me see..which Political party in the US of A thinks that Socialism is the answer, that the government knows best.......It sure ain't the Repblican party.

Let's get real people.....every President feathers his nest to some degree.....but to say Bush and his cronies are going to be the big winners......thats ludicrous.

Don't you get it the war on Terrorism is one against Muslim Fundamentalism which HATES WESTERN CIVILIZATION and wants a return to the glory days of the 14th century. That means that eveything we take for granted no matter what your economnic status is...is up for grabs. Do you realize that if you own a car, a TV, a refergriator no matter how old and beat you still are rich by the world standards.....how about running water and electricity those are LUXURIES folks......not some Gawd given right. What big business and the US government want is for the standard living of the world to rise....why so they can sell their products, and that means people have to be making money to buy them. Now the wolf has come to the door and has huffed and puffed and blew the WTC down. Now people have to make up their minds do you like the lifestyle you have or do you want to have one thats similar to the 3rd worlds. That means no Porsches boys.....you think maybe I can escape and it won't effect me......like I was told it won't matter if you have a wheel barrel full of money, plastic cards or no money...we'll all be in the bread line together. So what side are you going to stand? What I see is that most people in this country take their freedoms and lifestyles for granted... we have had them for so long they're ingrained.....but they can go away, situations change. BTW in Irak and in most countries U don't have a right to criticize the government...so those of you who have.....we are taking down names for the day when Allah prevails.....and we will send you before him to answer for your transgressions against him.

"popular votes should be it, man." CJ, your words...pure democracy, right? Sounds great...until 2 wolves and a sheep vote about what's for dinner, and you are the sheep. May I suggest that we are NOT a democracy, but a representative republic? Read the constitution. You should, we all should, thank our country's founders for rejecting the mob rule of democracy...
__________________

I agree pwd72's. I've always refered to it as a constitutional republic. Pretty much the same difference. Its not like the Constitution hasn't been butchered enough, it can be changed.

both systems have their flaws. I still like my way better, but I see your point.