Odd. I'm guessing being on a different coast is the reason my reply to tabs post ended up like 3 posts prior to the one I was replying too.

Anyway, the argument for or against socialism or a constitutional democracy is irrelavant to the war we were discussing.

I'm digging the news today. The largest anti-war protest in the history of mankind. Protests in most every major city worldwide, millions in London alone (yes, thats millions). Millions in Rome, and hundreds of thousands in France and in NYC, even though the city officially 'banned' the protest.

Whats up with that anyway, banning a protest. I mean once again the constituion says we have the right to peaceably assemble, how can a city make a public statement and say 'no protesting'.

Reminds me of the RIAA trying to win the battle against P2P networks by making it 'more illegal'. If companies and our government haven't figured it out yet, then they soon will. If a group of a few million American's want something and are willing to fight for it, there is not much that can stop us.

IMHO I think our government has gotten a little too comfy with stopping mass move supports since they have been able to keep up the 'war on drugs' for all these years with over 1/3 of our country admitting they use marijuana on a semi-regular basis and another 1/5 saying they use other substances regularly (thats not include the large number of American's who abuse doctor prescribed drugs, which would bring that large number up to an even larger percent).

Some cities have actually begun discussing making anti-war protests illegal by declaring the people 'terrorists'. It hasn't been passed anywhere yet, but it was in the local Orlando newspaper last week.

Anyone forgetting our country was founded by terrorists? The Boston Tea party isn't remembered the same way in British texts as it is here.

-S

Also don't fergit that the British were practicing Gun Control on their march to Lexington and Concord...

You should definitely have the right to protest peacefully as long as you don't obstruct others. I didn't think a city could legally ban a protest. They can choose not to issue a permit if it will be obstructing the day to day business of other people, but that's the only reason as far as I know.

Here is the bottom line. The original Gulf War never ended. There was only a cease-fire. Saddam pleaded with the U.N. that he would disarm if he could remain in power in Iraq. If he was found not to have disarmed, serious consequences would follow (being asked or forced to step down). That was the condition. He gave UN inspectors the run around (just like he is doing now) and booted them out in 1998. I doubt he disarmed in the four years there were no inspectors. So basically I believe there has been about 12 to 14 UN resolutions he has violated and the UN has done nothing. If the UN does nothing here, they might as well disband. So many people cannot understand that. Thats the bottom line.

what I am trying to do in this post is to cut through all the ideological points of view presented here to get at some central truths.

The world has always been a dangerous place, for a few years during the 90's the people of the USA seemed to forget that. It seemed like the end of history after the collapse of the USSR. The US has emerged as the only standing Super Power, both economically and militarily. As such we have responsibilities in the world or we will forfeit our power. Sometimes as the most powerfull nation one has to do things that are not pretty, and expediency is necessary.

No one in the world would disagree Sodamn is a bad actor and is playing the world for all he can to buy time. No body will cry when he is gone. The policy of containment has kept him in abox for 12 years or so. If he gets a Nuclear weapon the cost of removing him becomes greater, that might be only a matter of time? Does he have weapons of MD the answer is yes he does. The Iranian Foreign Minister said there would be a lot of US casualities if we invade, does he know something we don't?

The only sense I can make out of invading Irak is Geo Political in a region that supplies the world what it needs most oil. If the US takes over Irak, we've got ridden of a bad actor and have taken the center of the region geographically, now the US can influence the region by it's presence. By being in Irak we can put pressure on the sources of funding for fundamentalist terrorism. Instead of disappering from the Gulf which is what Bin Laden wants we have done the oposite and increased our presence and have become a player in the region.

Both the French and the Germans have very strong economic reasons for the US Not to invade Irak..don't forget that. The French built the Nuclear reactor that the Israelies bombed....a Nuclear reactor in a country as oil and natural gas rich as Irak? A country that hired a Canadian to build a super cannon that could fire upon Israel? Our European allies don't have clean hands here.

One has to gauge somehow the threat that Muslim fundamentalism poses to the West eg the USA as the major power. Bin Laden has called for a Jihad against America... to kill Americans where ever they are. His hope is that the Billion or so Muslim will rise against the west. Is that likely to happen.....No. The Islamic world doesn't have the economic resources and technology to win a war against the west in the long run. Their only hope is to be able to disrupt the Wests financial system enough to cause a crisis of liquidity. Then the whole house of cards can come down. The question is is this a viable means of achieving their goals....my answer is to look around you....it sure has put an element of doubt in the minds of people hasn't it? The stock market hasn't recovered and the US and european countries go in and out of recession.

I guess what I am trying to get at here is that Americans need to take the threat seriousily and realize that their way of life is on the line here. That the government .....current adminisration need their support in defending our way of life, sometimes it won't be pretty, sometimes mistakes and errors in judgement will be made, but given their own limitations and predispositions are doing the best they can to protect and serve the American people.

Made it to page 6 of the thread, very interesting read.
Thanks Z-man for keeping it alive, that took some guts and I enjoyed your posts. God Bless You.

A comment from your Northern Neighbour;
First and most importantly my family would like to thank all of the soldiers and their families who have and will put their lives on the line for our Countries. Thank-you and God Bless You.

Our Liberal School Systems teach us not to talk about Politics, Sex or Religion - as they are the most important things that can effect our Lives? I say go for it - thanks again Z-man.

Couldn't be bothered to follow all of the U.S.A. politics of present, I have studied and respected the history of the USA for years, and I'm very proud of your Country/Nation. Afterall, when the US citizens support a President that lies and commits adultry openly - well as the saying goes; "Houston, we have a problem."

BUT; when I listened to President Bushs' speech immediately following the tragic attack on the NY World Trade Centre - I WAS impressed. You have a great leader there! I truly believe that God has placed a hedge of protection over the USA and provided your Country with a truly great leader. Leaders can make mistakes; but honour, integrity and pride must never be missing from a Leader.

We must continue to Pray for our Political leaders. The United States has had some of the greatest people in the history of the World as their Leaders - Believe in your leaders.

<>< God Bless ><>

Hoff -

Iraq never 'kicked out' the UN inspectors in '98. Once again another lie Bush continues to sell to us, when it is now a known fact, which I can show you from many links to many news sources, that the inspectors were asked to leave by the UN because it was found that at least two were CIA operatives who were not only spying, but transmitting confidential data from their hotel rooms (which were being monitored by Iraq and the UN).

Tabs -

Good point, but once again bad premise. We can't simply end the threat of which you detailed by conquring a country in the region and pushing our will from a more centralized location. Once again, no regime in the history of the world has done this. I see the logic behind your argument, but there is that fatal flaw. To say we can 'win' or 'beat' the opposition through force is a losing proposition. To say we can win a war on terror by simply attacking the enemy until they quite coming is also a fallacy (as a US Marine potesting last week put it 'if that were true the Palestein/Israel conflict would have been over years ago and they would be singing kum-by-yah in the Balkans/Kosovo right now).

To end this conflict of which we are worried we must address the issues, and not just throw men, money, and bombs at the problem. WHY do these people wish to attack US interests? WHY would they attempt to destroy our economy.

Once again, Bin Laden has but one request, we pull our funding out of Israel. This year the new Bush budget has allocated we will send 25 billion in aid to other countries. 15 billion of that goes to Israel directly.

Why? So they can continue the fruiteless effort to stamp out the Arabs? It hasn't worked before, it won't work now, and as we see, they now are looking at the 'big picture' - they can't beat Israel until they stop the money and guns flowing into the country from the US. I myself think making ourselves a target for no good reason is a bad idea. I furher add that their plight should show us the road we are traveling down is a dead end, and will only lead to more violence and no solution.

On the subject of religion, not that I want to skew any of my views or comments by tying the two together, but on a seperate note those who claim to be Christians, when did Jesus say pre-emptive strikes are a good thing? I like the cartoon with WWJB (what would Jesus bomb?)

If you are familiar with the apocolypse, then you know the world rises up against the antichrist who leads the armies of the worlds only remaining superpower, mystery babylon. Anyone remember what starts armageddon? Mystery Babylon is the single superpower country that backs Israel in the was against the Arabs (Daniel 7-11).

*It was called 'mystery' Babylon because the prophet saw a large prosperous country, which at the time did not exist. The only thing he knew in comparision was Babylon, the great city which also fell.

Another interesting passages is that armegeddon will start will war in the middle east, where Syria, Jordan, and Egypt rise up against this superpower which 'rains down fire from the sky'.

(Kinda spooky, eh)

Anyway, had to throw that in for those who continue to put God into their comments. I am a religous person, but keep my comments and political ideology seperate, as a good statemans should. When you have to entangle your religion to back up your ideas, then you are fighitng a losing battle already. Besides, like the cartoon from the Post a few weeks back where Bush is giving a speech on starting war and continues to mention God, there is a large cloud with an arm behind him and the caption 'leave me out of this'. Who is he to say what God wants anyhow?

Just an added 2 cents to the OT OT :)

-S

Oh, one other thing I left out - when it comes to breaking UN resolutions, Israel leads the pack. Currently it is brekaing 67 UN resolutions, but the reason they don't get sanctions against them is that when the council votes on sanctions, the US blocks the measure everytime. In many cases, WE are the only country voting AGAINST sanctions in Israel.

Iraq they say is violating 1 so we need to go to war while Israel, who won't LET UN weapons inspectors in (thats one violation) has 67 total violations no one is doing anything about.

The others include:

Firing tanks/missles into crowded areas to target a single person
Political assassinations
Cutting off water/food suplies
Blocking Red Cross/Other humanitarian organizations
and the list goes on.

We support this and allow it to happen, then when one country we don like is ACCUSED of doing what a country we like is DOING we start a war?

Anyone see the flaw in the policy here?

Did you know that Mayan culture had this calendar that has been accurate ...until the year 2011 (if i remember correctly), then it suddenly ends for no reason.

Spooky :P

Zendar....The Mayan calender is accurate to within seconds over a period of thousands of years. It works on 500 year cycles....the last cycle ended with Cortes. The cureent cycle ends December 23, 2012. After that there are no more cycles.....Gona Party likes it's 2012.......

Dear Sternn: Bin Laden has more than one request. Get out of the Islamic Holy Land of Saudi Arabia, get out of Israel, in general to end the USA presence in the Gulf and region. He is a true religious zealot who wishes to return Islam to the true faith....by ridding at least the Muslim world of Western secularism.

To address the issues of why America is hated: Our corporations eg business has been infiltrating the cultures of the world for 55 years. Mickey Mouse, Coke Cola, Levis, McDonalds...Television, Movies, cars, technology companies, communications.....oil companies. The West eg the USA is supplanting the indigenous cultures and values with our secularism. Thats on one level where we are getting blowback.

On the political and military front the USA has imposed it's will on the world during the USA's crusade to end the tyranny of Communism. The Soviets did much the same in it's sphere of influence. During this crusade the USA usually supported governments that were friendly to the USA and if they weren't we usually found some people in that country who were. In many cases this expediency caused the USA to support some very undesirable people, which causes much of the world to see the USA as being hypocritical and thus hated.

Thus U might say the West and the USA has to change the very things that have brought the USA success and the wealth of the world to our doors.... Ain't gona happen at least not willingly.

Basically the truth of the matter is that economies of scale (corporations) bring the price of goods down to the level where masses of people can enjoy them, they are also necessary to support the cost of R&D and provide sufficient wages for people to afford those goods. .....thus the overall standard of living goes up...question are U better off with a washing machine or not, that is part of your standard of living....you could be washing your clothes on a rock. The USA has been supporting the spread of economies of scale through out the world so that we can sell more product, and with that comes a higher standard of living.....having running water is a higher standard of living. Yet there is great poverty, great debt, great mismanagement and greed in the world.

As far as Israel goes the Bush administration would rather ignore them if he could. George the 1st turned down a loan guarntee to Israel for 10 Billion even after the largest Jewish lobby in the USA tried to persuade him to give it. The Jewish population in the USA votes predominately for the Democractic Party, and helped to defeat George the 1st in 1992.

Tom Friedman of the NY Times, who is an expert on the Mid East and Pulizer Prize winner....seems to think that the USA presence in Irak will be a moderating force in the region, that it will help spread the gospel of Western secularism and democracy.

Enough for now....

Oh, thats what i meant :) did not bother to find out more (I only heard it ends)

Saddam stopped complying, and they left for fear of attacks from the US. The UN didn't pull out the inspectors because of the spying. The CIA was helping the UNSCOM along with British intelligence and this was done under the Clinton administration as well.

Again I see that pre-emptive strikes are brought up. First off, the Gulf War never ended. Also the US attacked Germany first in WW2 and we attacked North Korea first in the Korean War. I also remember Jesus tearing up the money changers tables in the temple. No one attacked Jesus there. Jesus also cast out a deamon into a herd of pigs. The deamon or the pigs never attacked Jesus. :)

I do agree that we should not be sending international welfare the way we do.

U should get your history straight Hoff....

Ditto.

I'm still trying to understand your Jesus parallel here. Jesus healed a man possessed with a demon, so therefore America needs to bomb Iraq?

Or is it Jesus found men gambling in the holy temple and was visibly upset, the first and only time in his life, and thats reason to bomb Iraq?

Someone has the Bush-isms down pat.

Anyone watch SNL last few weeks? Jimmy Fallon's Bush comments during the 'Weekend Updates'?

"...in Kentucky thousands of fish were found dead on a river bank. Authorities attribute this to illegal polluting by a local, undisclosed firm. When Bush was informed of this incident, his answer was 'another good reason to bomb Iraq'..."

"...teen pregnancy is on the rise in Texas. When Bush was asked what he was doing to help combat this issue he replied 'Im going to bomb Iraq"..."

That's good!
Perhaps the towelaban are threatened by the idea of their women having free time. I'm quite certain they are.

SNL - Such a painstakingly accurate source of thoroughly researched information. :rolleyes:

The "parrallel" was that I saw the WWJD message above, implying that Jesus would not preemptively strike anyone. I find the whole WWJD thing trivial anyway since nobody knows exactly what Jesus would do, but I digress. Which by the way, has anyone actually looked up the definition of preemptive?

(a) Relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is believed to be imminent.

(b) Undertaken or initiated to deter or prevent an anticipated, usually unpleasant situation or occurrence.

=)

I believe it was Winston Churchill who said:
My friend stated this today when I told him of this thread. Seems such a dividing line still exsists today, for the most part.

My useless $0.42.
-Z-man.

http://www.theaxisofevil.net/gallery...istraction.jpg

Hey - I liked that pic dude. Here is another good one I have on the site...