But, but, but, as one of the most highly taxed citizenry in the world that can't be, can it?

_

Are you sure they are not? How does German tax code handle invested capital, R&D or Depreciation? I do not know......

This means the capitalist system will have to do its job, which is to fill the void with affordable EVs for the masses. While this does not put them all in Tesla/Porsche/Mercedes products, the affluent will want to drive them.....

They certainly are not subsidizing an individual company the way Mr Musk has been, which is the subject of discussion here.

I should start my own thread about this but...

Has anyone done a total cost analysis of electric vs gasoline cars?

As in comparing electricity prices vs gas vs storage and loss of power whilst storing electricity.
And have they factored in the "cost" of using coal produced electricity vs other sources?

At the end of the day it takes a certain amount of energy to produce and propel a car.

So what's the most "efficient" way to do that?

Being the "Saudi Arabia" of Scandinavia (with 1/6 the population) certainly doesn't hurt.

Dude..... this ain't no fantasy of mine...... and yes you can borrow $100.

Do not know but here is what I found.... just inserted an excerpt from an article

Despite Germany's commitment to a social market economy, exceptions to market principles existed in West Germany and are proliferating in united Germany. German economic institutes and experts have repeatedly warned that authorities at various levels have supported many economic activities that should long ago have been discontinued or compelled to become competitive. Federal and Land authorities have ignored the complaints of the economists but have usually promised to reduce or eliminate subsidies as soon as feasible.

A Chevy Bolt is about ~30kWH for 100 mile charge. At 6 cents per kWH, that's about $2.00.

If you get 33 MPG you need three gallons to go 100 miles. Maybe $7.50 for gasoline?

Manufacturers say electric is 10% of a gas car, I would say more like 25%. There are other savings, like free charging where you work (or shop), no oil changes, almost zero brake wear etc. And there are wide ranges in 'fuel' prices, and some variation in kWH/100 miles, based on driving conditions and style. I am sure I could use double what Chevy and Tesla claim. You drive like a manic and the estimates go out the window.

I pay 10 cents/kWH, and I get 50 mpg in my car. The numbers for me would be $3.00 electric versus about $5.00 in diesel. Not enough to get my interest, my car was dirt cheap.

Ouch, Man. :D

I gots me one pal with one Tesla S. Early version. I like it. He paid thru the nose.

Tucker slam was outstanding.

I think the problem is that "efficiency" isn't even a concern with EV proponents. They just think they are saving the planet, and that there's some magical electricity fairy that supplies all the power to charge their EV unicorns. The fact is that oil & gas will always be needed. It is the backbone to modern civilization. For vehicles, the reduction of "carbon emissions" is the goal of those who support EVs, with the side benefit of "sustainability" as they see fossil fuels as a non-renewable resource that will completely dry up soon (a can that has been constantly kicked down, regarding the time we have left until we "run out"). But many fail to see the big picture.

If there was a transition to 100% EVs, the power demands and infrastructure to keep them on the road would be monumental. The electricity to keep those batteries charged has to come from somewhere. However, it seems that nobody is concerned with that. In reality, a surge in EVs could easily increase the net demand/need for fossil fuels, not reduce it.

Further, if one is concerned with fossil fuels being a finite resource, why isn't there any concern about the "sustainability" (and environmental concerns) of mining the materials needed to produce batteries, and especially powerful electric motors?
They don't call them "Rare Earth" elements for nothing.

This is where the electric technology is headed. Performance AND efficiency. What's wrong with that? There are electrified detractors out there but PORSCHE is not one of them.



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/eaOfgevPphk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Eric
You mistake Prius owners with Tesla owners.

Tesla owners are wealthy types who like the technology and what it says about them vs the impact to environment.

So you are saying that Tesla owners are driven by emotion and how they are perceived by others, pretty much what I thought.

Same demographic (image) as S Class, 7 series and Panamera which coincidentally are all sold with a 2019 Electric option..... actually put the Tesla sales next to the S class.... surprising how many Tesla's that are sold..... or were sold. I think sales have cooled...

What measure of efficiency are you asking about?

No they don't but the taxpayers shouldn't be dumping billions into research to produce a niche market car that may or may not be available other than a few folks.

You should be ashamed of yourself! Do it like Musk "give me $100 million for research"

For $5,000, I'll sell you the flying car option for any new Tesla. The feature will be activated at some unspecified future point.

The whole deal.

1. It it cheaper to build a gas car or all electric?
2. Which car would last longer without any major repairs or component replacement?
3. Does the lower maintenances costs of an Electric offset any financial advantage to owning a gas car?
4. Were is the lithium mined and how far is it shipped and then made into batteries and then shipped again to install in the car?
5. Which car uses more Joules of energy to do its job?

Electric cars seem great but I want some facts and figures on what it really "costs" to drive one.

This is desirable and depending on your circumstances could actually make a decent daily.

Morgan EV3

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511258688.jpg

And a JUAAAG. :D

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511258796.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511258846.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511258867.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511258887.jpg

True. An average Norwegian income is about 500k NOK. Average income tax is at just below 30%.

A new VW Golf Diesel with some equipment comes at just under 400k NOK.

So, the 'average' annual salary is just about an 'average' new car. Don't know how that compares with the US though...

Tesla............. Predicted possible crash......


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/tesla%E2%80%99s-breakneck-expansion-speed-could-be-a-car-crash/ar-BBFpLLt?li=AA4Zjn&ocid=spartandhp



GM's view of EV....... Profitable.

https://blog.caranddriver.com/gm-ceo-barra-profitable-affordable-300-mile-electric-vehicles-by-2021/?src=nl&mag=cdb&list=nl_dvr_news&date=111717

I like the Tucker reference too. I have often thought of Preston Tucker's government trial for selling accessories and dealerships for a car that wasn't yet in existence being similar to Tesla. Same story, but what a different time we live in.

1. The battery is the wild card, but an electric car, designed bare bones can be cheaper than a gas car. In the end you are trading off batteries, inverter and a one speed drive train versus an engine, transmission, etc etc. Don't forget, engine accessories (power steering, water pumps, AC etc are all going electric now).

2. Electric. No oil changes, no transmission, and regen braking.

3. The savings work the other way, the gas car costs more to maintain and drive.

4. Someone from PARF might answer this.

5. I believe in the end, considering only the cost of energy to move the vehicle, electric is more efficient. A power plant is far more efficient then a gas engine and an electric car is reasonably efficient as well. So you have a moderately efficient plant transmitting power (with losses) to a reasonably efficient vehicle, versus an inefficient gas engine. The efficiencies are sort of captured in the cost per mile. I do not think it is night and day difference, maybe 20%.

YMMV. Literally.

Disclaimer - I work with a number of electric vehicle manufactures and I regularly see new concepts and production plans. If my customers are able to deliver what they are planning there will be an enormous change in this market segment. If I am biased it's because I have seen some of what is coming.

I have no knock on the electric car. They can actually be fun as hell, and very well may be the future if a battery can be developed with higher energy density and the ability to withstand rapid charging. Along with the massive infrastructure changes required to sustain thousands of electric cars. There are an abundance of major carmakers that are pursuing fully electric or hybrid designs on their own dime, which I think is great. Tesla’s extensive use of my money to build what amounts to a toy for the rich is what I object to the most. I think otherwise they are cool cars and pretty entertaining to drive. But they don’t represent a contribution to society worthy of government funding.

I believe they take advantage of the same tax structure and grants as Tesla....



Isn't history riddled with Gov financed projects that translate to consumer products.....

Yes, all the time.

At $50 a barrel, billions in tax breaks keep many oil projects profitable

Just saying....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511287659.jpg

Nothing wrong with electric cars. But a lot is wrong with Tesla.

For a truckers perspective. He doesn't care about the drivetrain, but does care about the ergodynamics, or lack thereof.

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/21/tesla-semi-trucker-questions/

More reading.... Thanks Sithot
 

The General (GM) is coming. Alternatively, you can put a deposit on a Tesla you won't see for a while.

https://blog.caranddriver.com/gm-ceo...ws&date=111717

In a presentation at the Barclays 2017 Global Automotive Conference, General Motors CEO Mary Barra assured investors that the company’s next generation of electric vehicles will offer more than added driving range and model variety—they also will generate profits for GM.

“Our mission for electrification is simple,” Barra declared. “We are working to provide desirable, obtainable, and profitable vehicles that deliver a range of over 300 miles.”
General Motors has already pushed electric-vehicle boundaries—in terms of driving range for the dollar—with its 238-mile Chevrolet Bolt EV. But the company reportedly loses thousands on each Bolt EV sold even at its full $37,495 list price (before the potentially threatened $7500 federal EV tax credit).
GM previously announced plans for 20 new zero-emission vehicles by 2023 (globally), including two within the next 18 months. In its Barclays presentation, GM included an illustration of its “future electrification bandwidth,” pointing to variants that would include a low-roof car, a lineup of SUVs and crossovers ranging up to seven-passenger models, and a couple of different vans. The new platform allows a larger footprint and lower height, with improved DC fast charging (likely 150 kW or higher) planned.
The two small crossovers arriving in the near term will share some components with the Bolt EV. One of those (above) was shown in the presentation and anticipated to be specifically for China. Another one, for the North American market, could be a strong contender against the upcoming Tesla Model Y as well as anticipated EVs from Ford, Volvo, Hyundai, and Volkswagen, among others.

Modularity and Economies of Scale

Improvements, Barra said, stem from GM’s all-new battery platform, which would provide more packaging flexibility (via flexible modular battery-pack configurations) at a lower cost, providing a “building-block approach” to future EV development. Battery energy density will rise, while per-cell cost is expected to drop from a current $145 to less than $100 per kilowatt-hour in the Bolt. GM plans to assemble these battery packs at scale in both China and the United States.
GM sees these strategies adding up to a total cost reduction of more than 30 percent—enough to achieve profitability even while attaining price parity between electric and gasoline vehicles. “That profitability has to be at the cost of that segment, that vehicle in today’s market,” said Barra.
GM plans to fund the new EV and autonomous-vehicle development as part of an $8 billion investment. It foresees its own global EV volume hitting a million vehicles in 2026, with manufacturing capacity reconfigured for growth in China.
Economies of scale come in convergence and shared development among electrification, autonomous-technology, and shared-mobility programs. Barra stressed that GM’s electric-vehicle platform will provide the foundation for self-driving technologies, car sharing, and ride sharing—and that the company believes all fully autonomous vehicles should be electric. In its work with Cruise Automation, a Silicon Valley company it acquired last year, GM is already into the third iteration of its autonomous test vehicles after just 14 months.


“We plan to participate in the biggest business opportunity since the creation of the internet,” said Barra, pointing to ways that the company could harness its data for other vehicle-based services.
About-Face on Fast-Charger Support

Barra’s presentation also marked an abrupt change in direction for the company’s approach to DC fast charging, which can restore most of a battery charge in well under an hour. While in the past GM has seen this technology as ancillary and shrugged off any plan to build charging stations—a position nearly the polar opposite of what other automakers (such as Tesla with its Supercharger network) have pursued—Barra delivered quite a different position while laying out the company’s EV push.
“We are going to commit and play a role in accelerating the rollout of additional DC fast chargers, and we will work to look at what is the right EV charging infrastructure across the country and in other countries. We will either partner, incentivize, or invest to make sure that this customer pain point is removed,” she said. “Because it’s a customer issue, it’s an issue that General Motors will address.”
There are currently more than 1100 DC fast chargers in the United States in the CCS format that GM vehicles can use, according to the automaker, and that’s already a 42 percent gain over last year.

“As we’re removing range anxiety, the charging infrastructure becomes the issue,” Barra said, noting that the company plans to work with various charging companies and organizations, including Volkswagen’s Electrify America, and incorporating charging data gathered through its Maven car-sharing operations.

Alternatively

Musk Dusts Off the Fundraising Playbook With Semi, Roadster Orders

-Buyers put down $5,000 for Semi, up to $250,000 for Roadster
-Customer deposits function as financing boost amid cash burn

"Musk is deploying a clever financing trick, taking in hefty deposits to help fund Tesla’s way through its immense production challenges."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...c501-147886161

That's over $37k for a $20k vehicle, and they still lose money on it.


Maybe if we all hold hands and close our eyes and pretend REALLY HARD, we can wish it to come true ...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511302860.jpg

I was talking about electric vehicles with Mrs WD this afternoon. (She is brilliant, BTW.) "School buses! They sit all night and half the day. There is plenty of time to charge them. They roar through the neighborhood before dawn. Why not electrify them instead of OTR trucks?" I have to agree. School buses would be a great application and a great lab for improving the technology.

Again..... Tesla objectionable..... Amazon / Uber revolutionary.....



Agree.....

The concern I would have there would be the risk factors of such tech on a larger scale such as a school bus, especially considering the precious cargo. I've seen the results/aftermath of Li-Ion thermal runaway, and it ain't pretty (and that was with a single 18650 cell). Also, with a 2-4 seat EV, rapid egress wouldn't be much of an issue if things go wrong. That isn't the case with a mass-transit vehicle (EV or not), especially if/when panic sets in. Just my $.02...

More reasons to shut the Musk scam down:
Automotive Turkeys of 2017 | Fox News

A four door compact car is perhaps about $15K-$20K here. Median income for the states is roughly about $50K. A Jaguar XE starts at $36K. The golf is on the upper end of a four door compact that isn't with a luxury brand at close to $20K.

This is kind of weird... A charging station in Keith South Australia. (Population 1,320. 225 km from Adelaide)

I wonder who paid for it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1511577738.jpg

Clearly the Thomas Edison trust fun for wayward boys.

I suspect the correct statement would be "I wonder who IS PAYING for it"
More than likely, you will be paying for a long time to come.