newbe welding question-trapped moisture? - Page 3

bluemane500 · bluemane500's Garage

962 , read your last post here, he is just confused , you are telling him to weld the roll bar in, you forgot its a plate, its a bolt in

962porsche · 03:56 AM

no ! the plate for the feet should be welded as if it were the feet on the bar its self . but looking at the photo posted it looks to me like there are just nuts welded to the sheet metal floor . if so thats no good ! the simple fact is i'm still not liking the way it is getting done . the feet of the bar should sit flat to the floor and not be lifted off the floor by the nuts that the bar will bolt to .

drcoastline · 03-08-2011, 05:01 AM

962 how about a "backing plate"? My experience dealing with high stresses or loads comes from racing sail boats. We would back all of our deck mounted equipment up with a backing plate no less then twice the size of the contact surface of the hardware being mounted. The bigger the better as it would spread the load over a larger surface. Ideally I think you would want the backing plate bonded to the surface in boat talk. In this case welded. I am thinking from Bill's posts he is not keen on welding a plate to the car. I guess for originality purposes so when the roll bar is removed there is virtually no sign it was there? A backing plate would at least provide more strength then just attaching to the cars sheet metal.

Here is an example of a backing plate. We would have radiused the corners to prevent the sharp corners from trying to cut through the surface. But you get the idea.

962porsche · 03-08-2011, 03:17 PM

yes making a backing plate as big as it can be is always best ! if you just want a bolt in bar then it really should be installed as the manufacture wanted it to be . thas with a plate on the under side of the car and the bottom plate or foot mounted to the floor its self with the floor pan sandwiched between them . some folks don't want holes in there floor were the bolts would pass thru . now that leaves you to need to weld a plate as big or bigger if you can the size of the foot on the roll bar . so to do so it should be welded as i stated in the past ! now you need to some how bolt the bar to the plate . it will need to be bolted flat to the plate that is weld to the floor plate . it can not be sitting off the floor on things like some nuts . to be safe it needs to be flat ! so now welding a plate to the floor and then welding some nuts on top of the floor plate is out . the bar would be sitting on the nuts ! NO GOOD! so you would want the nuts on the under side of the plate that is welded to the floor . right ! another option is to have a 1/2 to 3/4 inch thick plate made tap the threads for the roll bars bolts into the thick plate and then weld that to the floor . try to weld a 1/2 - 3/4 thick plate to sheet metal and have your weld hot enough to make good penetration to the two deferent thicknesses of metals . you could weld the nuts on the under side of a plate and then drill the 4 holes in the floor as so the bolts would poke thru the floor this would let the floor plate side flat to the floor and then the roll bar feet would sit flat to that . but you now still have holes in the floor . or you could weld the 1/8 thick floor plate to the floor then weld nuts on top of the floor plate . then have an other 1/8 inch thick top plate and sit that top plate on top of the 4 bolts that are welded to the bottom floor plate . drill the 4 holes in the top floor plate that is sitting on the 4 bolts that are welded onto the bottom plate . the 4 holes are for the roll bar bolts to pass thru . then box in the sides of the two plates ( top and bottom ) do a continuous weld for the sides of the box top and bottom seams . if there is a seam weld it . now you have a box with nuts welded in it . another way you could build it is to weld the feet of the roll bar to the floor and then cut the roll bars legs at about 2 to 3 inches up from the floor . then weld a 1/8 " thick bottom plate to the top of the roll bar post that is now welded to the floor . then weld an other 1/8 inch thick plate to the bottom of the roll bar were you made the cut . now you can bolt the two halfs together . the top and bottom plates will sit flat to each other and then you can drill the 4 holes thru the two feet and bolt the bar together that way .

bluemane500 · bluemane500's Garage

you both are two of a kind, the first two cards in a new deck, boats, snow angels,why dont you go back an look at the first post, the manufaturers P I C T U R E, that would be where the post started on page 1, you guys are like abbot & costello who's on first

bluemane500 · bluemane500's Garage

here you go this is what you sound likehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M

bluemane500 · bluemane500's Garage

Abbot and Costello - Who's on First

drcoastline · 03-08-2011, 06:19 PM

Pocket Aces

As opposed to BM500

bluemane500 · bluemane500's Garage

no,doc, again you are mistaken, the first two cards when you open a new deck are the jokers,you should pay attention,I'm gonna leave you guys alone now,have a great day

drcoastline · 03-09-2011, 04:45 AM

Well, Cliffy if you would show me where I am mistaken? Please show me where I have voiced an opinion on how something should be done vs. asked how something could be done based on other experience and asked for an opinion?

Here Cliff found this little clip. This kind of sums it up.

YouTube - Cheers - Cliff's Electric Button[img]

962porsche · 11:10 AM

there should be no confusion ! any bottom plates whether being the feet to the roll bar its self or the foot plate that the feet of the roll bar would bolt to need to be welded with a continues weld all the way around the foot or foot plate !with no gap between the two plates or the foot of the bar and the floor . NOTHING HAS CHANGED !!!!!!! the 1st that was posted about the plate he (MAYBE) using was 3 posts ago ! if that is the real plate that is being used ? i'm not a fan of using a 1/8 inch plate with treads in it to hold my ass in a car if your hooking belts to it ! the force of an impact could pull the bolts out of the plate . the nuts that are used for bolting a cage or bar to the floor are about a 1/2 inch thick for the threads to grab ahold of were the threads on the plate are only about 1/8 thick to grab on to . in two of the 7 PM's i got for other people on this forum stating what an asking me questions about paint and body work and saying what an ass 500 is it was pointed out that it really looks like the photo that was posted there is no plate but rather just nuts welded to the floor . thats what comments i was referring to . thow my reply to the two people thinking that there were just nuts welded to the floor may not be the case because it was stated that he was using a plate . i don't under stand the reason for BS500 sarcasm ? well maybe i do ! it has to do with his own imperiority complex . he has given no advice on how to do some thing the right way just keeps posting other look at this links . and no i don't hate the guy ! I PITY HIM !!!!!!!! because for some one like that to have all this time in the body biz and still not to know any thing . insted of learning and bring his self up to other peoples level he will TRY to bring people down to his very low level . that is so sad !!!!! little mind little man/boy !

962porsche · 03-12-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 996 esquire

gotta agree with BM500, I think this is what was referred to way back in post #1 from the original poster.

the key words here is I THINK ! plates like this are made more for looks than true function . thats for when you want a bar in the car but having it as safe as it could be is not that important . most of the plates like that have realy to small of a foot print to make the bar as safe as it could be . that is what the other joker and my self were talking about . the bigger the foot print of a foot to a roll bar is the better it will hold up in a crash . now it could be a welded plate to the floor or the plate to the bar its self . but they would get welded in the same way with a continues weld around the plate . the plate in this photo has a hole in the center . i would weld that seam as well . now this goes back to my reply about other kinds of way to bolt the bar to the floor . now being that there is only 1/8 " of threads to have the bolts grab ahold of . a very small gripping area for threads to support any shoulder belts that maybe strapped to the roll bar . now if there were two people in the car and both of them had shoulder belts around the roll bar with twice the force in a crash would you trust the clamping force of the bolts holding the bar to the floor ? now being that the foot plate welded to the floor looks or could be smaller than the foot plate on the bar its self making the bar want to hing its self on the edge of the foot plate welded to the floor . would you trust the 1/8 inchs of threads even more ? simple physics tells you that the wider the foot print the more stable it will be . confusion ? i'm not seeing it ! now it was not stated in the 1st post about ever any belt getting striped to the bar but many people do and then go and use them thinking there safe when its not ! so if you want to be a little safer what other options do you have ? your goal is to have more threads for the bolts to grab hold of . make a thicker plate ? weld a 1/2 thick plate to the floor . the weld well not get good penatration to the plate being so thick . make a box with bolts in it for the foot of the bar to sit on and bolt to . or make a pedestal welding the foot of the bar to the floor then cuting the bar 2 or 3 inches up and then welding plates one on top of the pedestal and one to the bottom of the bar that can be bolted together . so think of some other ways you could bolt a bar in the car with out putting holes on the floor and being safe to use belts with .

962porsche · 03-13-2011, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkreigsr

Thanks guys.
Yes, it's a bolt in bar - not cage - and you are correct in assuming that it's primary purpose is to serve as an anchor for the shoulder harnesses.
The manufacturer suggests what's in the picture - 4 spot welds.
Please explain what 'plug weld the bolt holes' means. I still want the bar to be removable.
Even though there is some disagreement in the solution, the dialog is very informative, helpful, and appreciated.
Bill K

you are correct !

962porsche · 03-13-2011, 08:54 AM

how does asking a question turn into some thing i said he is doing or did ?????? the plates are not 1/4 inch ! my friend rob stopped by my shop last night with a plate that looks the same as the one in the photo . it was 3/16" thick . i do under stand the mind set when people add some thing like a bar like this one they then feal they have to try to justify thats its safe just as safe as any other bar out there and there could be in no way shape or form any way to make it safer . do you have any idea of the safety changes in the rules from the 1970's designs to now ? a roll cage that was built 10 years ago would not pass tech today . but even if it was 1/4 " its still only half the size of the bolts that are used for a nut bolt combo of that size to thru bolt a bar or cage to a floor . so what is being stated is the two 13mm threaded studs (one on each side )on the back legs good enough will hold in an impact and then in no way will the studs ever shear or pull out in a worst case scenario . and thow i never stated in just a frontal impact but in multiple impact frontal , side impacts during a crash or a roll over . its so funny just how clueless i am when the post that shows the bar in the car that person is still only using the OE 3 point belts ???? you don't trust the 5 little bolts on each side either ! i would'nt either !and from the looks of the bar in that car there are only 3 bolts showing but there could be 4 there ???? using the stock belts is safer than rapping the 5 or 6 point belts to a out dated bar design like that is . when people state things like this kind of a design if more than ok . it tells me with out any doubt they have never raced on a track and better yet have never had any crashes on a track to find out just how bad things really are or can get and just how fast it can go wrong !!!!! right or wrong all i'm saying is i don't trust the plate on the feet of this set up and there are better ways to do it ! so when i asked rob how he built his . i was told it was with a 1/4 plate he tack welded nuts on the under side of the plate .drilled 4 holes in the floor for the nut to rases into then welded the plate to the floor . i think i stated that is one way to do it ???? he also feals that the RS plate is real cheesy ! so your 100% right use that plate ! just put a cupple of little tack welds on it don't use any weld primer . it will never rust then rap your belts around it and hit the track . just rember this the clueless people telling you to do it have never been on a track !

bluemane500 · bluemane500's Garage

YouTube - Whats up doc

962porsche · 03:44 AM

sorry i don't click onto the look at this links ! you have had no real input . you keep posting BS with sarcasm ! sarcasm does not validate knowledge it does just the opposite !

962porsche · 03-14-2011, 04:09 AM

that roll bar is in a word junk !!!! a fastener is only as strong at its weakest link . in this case the 3/16 " plate of what grade ? would you call the metal plate a grade 3 or 5 fastener ? so even if your bolt is a grade 8.8 it does not mater because the other half of the fastener is a much lower grade . then on the rear legs there is only two 10mm x 125 bolts holding the rear legs . if you know the load ratings of the size fasteners being used with the grip range they are in you would under stand more . the rear legs bolting points are made for a seat belt ( one half of one seat belt ) it was not designed for a roll bar ! if its not under stood that there are better roll bars on the market that are much safer and more up to date for todays track speeds than trying to tell you that is pointless . and like i stated before your 100% right .

996 esquire · 07:18 AM

the instructions were to look at the the picture very carefully, and take your time.

no harnesses yet because it was a test fit?

rear legs bolted to seat belt anchors? look again, and really take your time.

and I think you missed the whole point of the post regarding the design of the bar (not cage), and what would happen in the event of an incident.

tell your friend Rob that the plate in question is, in reality, 1/4 inch, maybe we should be dealing with him, if he's responsible for feeding you incorrect info.

Fishcop · Fishcop's Garage

Unfortunately this thread has gone school-yard...

962porsche · 03-14-2011, 04:44 PM

whats with the sarcasm ????? i build about 6 cages for real race cars a year . some of them i run in the ALMS with . i see and build more cages in a year than you will see in your hole life smart ass ! that bar is a piece of crap !!!!! so i will put on my glasses and look real hard at the rear legs . so what i see is it looks to go to the seat back mounting point but that can't be right because no one is that dumb to mount it to that that would be worce that the seat belt mounts . so move the carpet out of the way so i can see just how poorly its mounted . never the less its still bolted in place with one bolt on each side . so ok thats all the sarcasm i have its just not me i will not sink to that level ! ok so there is one bolt on each side and say the bolts are of a 8.8 grade and it has the same grade matching nuts to thread into . and say they are size 10mm x 125 in a grade 8.8 that would give you a strenght of 1835 lbs pull and a shear strenght of 1/3 less . now if you take a body weight of say 200 lbs times G at 6 only G's most people can live from a crash up to 14 G's your getting close to maxing out the holding force of that bolt . now add in an other 200 lbs of force times G from another person in the car . so one bolt on each side of that size is not sufficient to hold that kind of force load . now moving onto the front legs . we / i sand blasted off the powder coating from the floor plate that was given to me the other day i still have it . it did measure out to be 3/16" thick with out the coating on it . it was just under 1/4 with the coating on it . but to make you happy i will call it a 1/4 inch plate . now if the bolts for that plate are and these are grade 8.8 8mm x 125 threads then the nut that goes to then being a standerd thickness of 5/16 thick the plate is still 1/16 thinner than the standered nut for a bolt of that size . now is that a big deal ? for some things no ! but when it comes to safety gear hell yes . now add in that steel plates only have a grade of 3 to 5 at most a 5 and 3 is average . at makes now deference what grade the bolts would be . with the steel plate i have in my hands right now i pulled the bolt out on the frame bench and the gage on the ram never move off bottom . the gage starts to read at 500 lbs . it pulled the threads out of the plate at under 500 lbs of pressure . that tells me the plate is of a much lower grade than the bolts being used . my guess would be about 300 lbs is what the bolt pulled out at ? the rest of the guys in the shop said the same . that part is crap ! a fastener that size should hold to about 700 lbs with a 8.8 nut on the back side . i would not put that bar in a car for any of my customers and tell them its safe to hook there belt to . in a nut shell i would tell them to get a better roll bar one thats up to date for todays track driving . as for the design ! i never stated its a cage but it is a roll bar and it is safety equipment none the less . as for helping in an incident ? it could do just the opposite and injure or even kill you if it brakes off its mounting points ! what is even worse is if does get installed the way that BS500 stated . with just some spot welds and no weld primer . with no weld primer it will rust over time and weaken the metal under and around the feet of the roll bar . as for my friend he is not feeding me any info at all . as an engineer that worked for porsche for years in there racing departmant i can just look at it and see it could be better mounted . welding it in would be best for one and if you wanted it to be a bolt in . get a better roll bar and thru bolt it in going thru the floor to a plate on the under side of the car to a plate that is bigger than the foot of the roll bars foot its self . if you think that only one bolt on each side for the rear legs are good or the best it could be and a 1/4 inch plate of how knows what grade it is ? is safe then take your car to the track and push it as hard as you can !!!! drive it like you stole it !! i just hope to god i'm not the instructor in the car !