3 broken head studs, help me think

[Jesse16]

My 87 was almost exactly the same mileage but slightly less oil useage and no broken studs 8 years ago. I went a mostly DIY approach over a winter with much success. The bottom end got done by a nearby shop mostly for me to have peace of mind. That shop told me the bearings were perfect and could have been left but they did them since apart. I guess I like that the case got re-sealed with new goop. They gave me the remaining tube of Dow sealant for the remainder of the build which I did and 100K and probably 80 track days later its still running strong and no leaks. Price for all was just south of 7K.

[GaryR]

I would absolutely do a complete split-case rebuild at 177k miles with a "who knows what" history and address what JJeffries and Marc spoke about. Other than that you can pop it apart, do the head studs/rings/valve job, put it back together and cross your fingers. Me, I don't have good "crossed-fingers" luck...

[PushinRice]

I'm in a similar boat. Have 2 broken studs on my SC at 168k. It's a slippery slope of $$

I'd consider rebuild to keep the original engine with the car but the CIS components are also quite aged.

If I spring for a rebuild and go EFI or carbs then I'm starting to approach 3.6 territory.

I'm seriously considering a 3.6 swap and selling the 3.0 to recoup some cost. It's a lot of money for me, so tough decision..

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by yelcab1

You know, I am of the opinion that you fix what's broken and what is convenient to fix while you are in there, and what you have budget for.

At a minimum, replace all bottom head studs.
If you can afford it, do the valve job.
If you really have money to spare, address the bottom end.

Stop when you run out of money, especially if you have to pay for someone to do this.

I'm of the same mind on this. It all depends on how much money you really want to toss at it. If the engine runs well, go after the head studs and put new seals in it. Then drive it while you save for a full on rebuild.

[RDM]

Originally Posted by cabmando

I'm of the same mind on this. It all depends on how much money you really want to toss at it. If the engine runs well, go after the head studs and put new seals in it. Then drive it while you save for a full on rebuild.

Not really sensible at 1 qt/400 miles. Something beyond the head studs is really wrong and needs to be addressed.

Given that time to work on cars is not unlimited, it makes sense to address all the issues and build the motor to last.

[kger]

Thanks again for all the thoughts. I'm 99% sure I'll tear it all the way down and address everything that needs to be - do it right once and drive it hard for another 200k which is basically forever for a weekend/fun car.

The next big fork will be whether I can rent the back half of my "garage neighbor's" tandem garage that they currently don't use. We have a tandem garage next to theirs (think one garage that is two cars wide and two cars deep with 2 separate doors, in the city with no real usable outdoor space):

-If I can't, I will have to farm out almost all of the work. Maybe I can drop the engine and strip it down to the long block in a few days and at least get that experience and save on some labor costs.

-If I can, then I have to decide how much of the work I want to do. The extra space will be fairly small - 2 car spots side-by-side for all the work, including storing the SC while out of commission.

My initial thought is that maybe I'll drop the engine and disassemble everything, then send everything to a reputable shop to clean, inspect/measure, and replace/assemble the long block. During that time I'll go through the CIS top to bottom and handle a few random things (shocks, fuel lines). Then when the rebuild is done, I'll do the clutch, reinstall the CIS, and reinstall the motor.

I think that plan gets me dirty enough, saves some dough, and get's things done quicker with full confidence in the engine build. It also saves me from having to do most of the cleaning which could be a problem in a shared garage with a just OK drain.

What do people think about that? Or, should I just man up and DIY the whole thing if I can get the garage space? How many hours total am I looking at all in, 150?

Any SF Pelicans come to mind who might be interested in lending a hand and enjoying a few free cold ones + pizza/burritos?

[cabmandone]

If you're going to tear it down, why not put it back together? You're really only saving a few hours worth of work for an experienced Porsche engine guy and I would guess most would want to do the tear down just so they have things organized to put it back together.

[kger]

Originally Posted by cabmando

If you're going to tear it down, why not put it back together? You're really only saving a few hours worth of work for an experienced Porsche engine guy and I would guess most would want to do the tear down just so they have things organized to put it back together.

Good point. If I disassemble I should reassemble, maybe send stuff out for cleaning/inspection.

On the other hand, what are thoughts on the "drop just the long block off for rebuild" approach? I know the CIS will need refreshing, so I could do that and a couple other projects in parallel with a pro handling the rebuild. I'd save on the R&R of the engine and all systems on the engine.

[cabmandone]

Yeah, I'd strip it down to the LB and let them disassemble from there.

[High Life]

Just throwing this out there - sell it and buy another one without broken head studs...

The difference will probably be less than the parts and labor to fix it.. I've seen 911SC models with engine issues go in the mid 20K and rebuilt 911SC go in the low 30s... 5-7 K loss.. vs 11 - 15K of work, parts and labor..

Then again what do I know..

[kger]

Originally Posted by High Life

Just throwing this out there - sell it and buy another one without broken head studs

Not a bad idea. I don’t have any real emotional attachment to this particular car, and it does seem that the low end and high end for SC’s is compressed (meaning the really bad ones still get around 20 and solid ones rarely crack 40)

This one is a good starting point for someone. Brand new driver quality paint, ran great even with the broken head studs, full brake system rebuild from master cylinder to calipers. Should get new shocks and the interior shows some age (though more like a nice liveable patina).

[SCadaddle]

Originally Posted by High Life

Just throwing this out there - sell it and buy another one without broken head studs...

Yes. Bail out of the one you have and pay a premium for one with no broken studs and no history of at least a top end build where they replaced the dilivar studs with factory steel studs or.....

That just don't make much sense to me.

[High Life]

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

Yes. Bail out of the one you have and pay a premium for one with no broken studs and no history of at least a top end build where they replaced the dilivar studs with factory steel studs or.....

That just don't make much sense to me.

TRUE - Dont pay a "premium" for one with no history.. and like I said - look for one with a rebuilt motor..

I think the OP gets the point.. its a market decision.

[Adrock]

Originally Posted by High Life

Just throwing this out there - sell it and buy another one without broken head studs...

The difference will probably be less than the parts and labor to fix it.. I've seen 911SC models with engine issues go in the mid 20K and rebuilt 911SC go in the low 30s... 5-7 K loss.. vs 11 - 15K of work, parts and labor..

Then again what do I know..

But then, what if the replacement hasn't had the studs replaced already and they end up breaking... then you're just back at where you're started, except you had to remove and install an engine and then remove it again if the studs break.

[High Life]

Originally Posted by Adrock

But then, what if the replacement hasn't had the studs replaced already and they end up breaking... then you're just back at where you're started, except you had to remove and install an engine and then remove it again if the studs break.

Cant the OP look for a rebuilt motor with the heads replaced? (documented of course). I'm also suggesting he doesn't fix the one he has, just sell it as is (so no pulling it "again")

I'm just suggesting looking at the option of removing yourself from the headache and time of the work involved with fixing and just buying another one. What is it worth? The OP has to decide.

Make an economic decision - look at the opportunity cost of your time plus what you can sell the current one for VS buying one that doesn't need the work..

[Adrock]

Originally Posted by High Life

Cant the OP look for a rebuilt motor with the heads replaced? (documented of course). I'm also suggesting he doesn't fix the one he has, just sell it as is (so no pulling it "again")

I'm just suggesting looking at the option of removing yourself from the headache and time of the work involved with fixing and just buying another one. What is it worth? The OP has to decide.

Make an economic decision - look at the opportunity cost of your time plus what you can sell the current one for VS buying one that doesn't need the work..

I'm sure they could look for one with the studs already replaced... but by the time he tracks down such an engine, removes his engine, sells his existing one, installs the other one, he could have torn the engine down to a short block and replaced the heads studs himself.

I'm in exactly the same position right now with a broken head stud. Engine is out and on a stand, mostly torn down. So far, all it's going to cost me is some new studs, a new clutch kit and new gaskets. In my opinion if someone is mechanically savvy enough to do a valve adjustment themselves or remove / install and engine - then I can't see any reason why they couldn't replace their studs themselves.

[RDM]

OP, what do you value? Why do you own the car?

We're all giving answers about what you should do in this situation assuming you value what we value and you own the car for the same reason we do. And there are a lot of different "we"s out here with a lot of different perspectives.

If you view the car as a fun hobby and a learning opportunity, dive in. We're with you.

If you consider the work to be a hassle, hire it out. We're with you then, too, though you don't need us much.

[kger]

Originally Posted by RDM

OP, what do you value? Why do you own the car?
...
If you view the car as a fun hobby and a learning opportunity, dive in. We're with you.

If you consider the work to be a hassle, hire it out. We're with you then, too, though you don't need us much.

This is exactly why I'm hung up on the decision to dive in full bore. I really like wrenching on it and learning and improving my skills, but I would always rather just be behind the wheel (at speed). In an ideal world, the car would run perfectly and I could wrench 5 hours a month to maintain it and fix little things here and there.

The thought of this taking up to a year is a little scary as I'd like to get as many road trips in before kids and family life arrive in a couple years. Coincidentally, my current job and home situation (no kids, good amount of free time and flexibility) are also great reasons to tackle a big project like this now.

So... that's all to say that I need to figure out what I really want out of this. Thanks for listening to the ruminations.

To touch back on the "sell this and buy another" option: The idea would be to sell this one for say $20k and buy another, holistically better example for less than [20+rebuild cost] - so say $30-35k. I think that is possible, but I would probably have to get right around 20 for the current car and it isn't a slam dunk by any means. The market could also continue to rise and price me out of that idea making sense while I'm in limbo.

In some good news, looks like my neighbor is cool with me using his extra garage space for the price of "one pizza", which I think is officially the best deal in the history of SF garage space.

[PushinRice]

IMO I wouldn't sell your car if you know its in good shape besides the engine. You never know what's wrong with a "new" car. There is some value to knowing what you're dealing with.

If you don't need to keep the original engine with the car would you consider buying a spare 3.0 to rebuild? You could rebuild the spare 3.0 while keeping your existing car running. Then when the spare engine is rebuilt, swap it into your car and sell your engine to recoup some of the cost. It would allow you to keep driving your car and would give you the experience of tackling a big project. Just a thought.

[SCadaddle]

Sounds like you have the garage space and the free time to deal with the engine issues. The first thing I would then look at would be the availability and cost of a parts washer machine and a good air compressor. I've been down this same road that you are looking at. You will spend much more time just cleaning parts than you will tearing down and reassembling the engine.