3 broken head studs, help me think

[Erik99]

Originally Posted by PushinRice

IMO I wouldn't sell your car if you know its in good shape besides the engine. You never know what's wrong with a "new" car. There is some value to knowing what you're dealing with.

If you don't need to keep the original engine with the car would you consider buying a spare 3.0 to rebuild? You could rebuild the spare 3.0 while keeping your existing car running. Then when the spare engine is rebuilt, swap it into your car and sell your engine to recoup some of the cost. It would allow you to keep driving your car and would give you the experience of tackling a big project. Just a thought.

Sorry to hi jack but do you know off hand what a spare (and run out) 3.0 would cost? I am toying with the idea of rebuilding/learning on an engine while I wait for garage space and the right roller 911 to come along. How crazy is this idea?

Erik

[kger]

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

Sounds like you have the garage space and the free time to deal with the engine issues. The first thing I would then look at would be the availability and cost of a parts washer machine and a good air compressor. I've been down this same road that you are looking at. You will spend much more time just cleaning parts than you will tearing down and reassembling the engine.

Can I take parts out to be professionally cleaned? If it saved that much time of what I would consider the worst/least fun and rewarding part of this job, that would be really enticing.

[Trackrash]

Originally Posted by kger

Can I take parts out to be professionally cleaned? If it saved that much time of what I would consider the worst/least fun and rewarding part of this job, that would be really enticing.

Agree, cleaning is / was for me / the most time consuming and disgusting job. I spent a LOT of time cleaning my motor. First you need to get off the major crud before you start to disassemble. Be careful not to get any water inside the motor in the process. Your options are a hose and lots of gunk, a self car wash, or a pressure washer (careful with those).

Once you disassemble you can use a parts washer. Problem is the aluminum gets corroded and grimy. You can use different solvents and acids with multiple brushes to get most of it off. Then you can use your DISHWASHER to do the final cleaning. Just wait to your wife is out shopping. The pros have access to stronger solvents and many will use a bead blaster. I don't like bead blasters on engine parts, but if used correctly by someone who knows what they are doing, it is acceptable.

Then how nice do you want your CLEAN parts to look? I spent a lot of time scrubbing to make my engine parts to look like new.

Maybe others who had a pro clean their parts can chime in. But most will send out the dirty parts to who ever is doing the evaluation and machine work.

Good luck.

I used steel wool and Gibbs to get the final result as shown on the bottom cover.



Finished motor.

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by kger

Can I take parts out to be professionally cleaned? If it saved that much time of what I would consider the worst/least fun and rewarding part of this job, that would be really enticing.

I took my oil tank to a old radiator shop about 12 years ago.

Came back several days later and it was stripped to bare naked beauty.

$8. Its steel though.

I don't know what they use to hot tank them but a quick google search says any type of caustic acid is a no no for aluminum.

That said auto machine shops are set up to do this type of cleaning work on cases/blocks/heads, etc. They will advise.

See 1:35 in on this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-DSIba8qZ4

Do yourself a favor and have them take your old studs out. You also don't have to break the bank for wizz-bang high tech studs. Just get the proper steel studs in the later 911's.

Shawn @ Tru6 could work wonders with your steel brackets and cadmium plate parts.

[Coastr]

Originally Posted by High Life

Just throwing this out there - sell it and buy another one without broken head studs...

The difference will probably be less than the parts and labor to fix it.. I've seen 911SC models with engine issues go in the mid 20K and rebuilt 911SC go in the low 30s... 5-7 K loss.. vs 11 - 15K of work, parts and labor..

Then again what do I know..

Lots of guys with 1972 Ts took this advice and went to 2.7s and 3.0s. Later they realised the lost value was far greater than the cash saved. Fix the motor that belongs to the car, it’s not a Camry.

[kger]

Originally Posted by Coastr

Lots of guys with 1972 Ts took this advice and went to 2.7s and 3.0s. Later they realised the lost value was far greater than the cash saved. Fix the motor that belongs to the car, it’s not a Camry.

Good advice as well. I really like the 3.0. I'm going to keep it. The decision now is just either (A) farm it out (I spoke with Tom Amon this morning and got a great feeling and thought the quote was fair and turnaround fast), or (B) do it myself.

Wayne's book is on the way so I can read and either scare myself out or psyche myself in.

However, the pros of hiring it out are starting to sound pretty good:
-having the car back next month (less of my time, more driving time, time to handle other projects in parallel while car is out of commission)
-complete confidence in the rebuild, not having to go back into it
-A reputable name attached to it
-no cleaning

Cons:
-More $$
-No rebuild experience, pride of own work

[sugarwood]

How accomplished & serious of a mechanic are you?

Everyone is very supportive, and that's great,
but I will offer another slice of truth and reality.

I know nothing about how hard an engine rebuild is, so I will speak in generalities.

Like you, I would give my left nut to take a shot at doing an engine rebuild. It would be a major life accomplishment.
Many of us can do small repairs, but I could only dream of dropping an engine and rebuilding parts of it. Alone.
I am experienced enough to know I would not dare try that without a hardcore lifetime gearhead psycho mentor in my garage.
Alas, I don't know a single person who could show me, so it's a dream that will never happen for me.
so that is not an option as the car hobby dies a slow suburban home owners association death, and knowledge goes to the grave.

For me, books are practically useless for learning auto mechanics. Maybe these engine books are different.
Half the time you don't even know what you're looking at, if there are even diagrams to begin with.
I have no idea why new owners are always told to buy Wayne's 101 Projects. It was the most superficial automotive repair book I've ever read
Often one crappy photo per repair, if that, it's basically useless unless you already know how to do the repair, and have been there already.
(Bentley's is much better, but YouTube is the best, but there is almost zero for 911 DIY)

Also, when stuff doesn't go as planned, you can use the book to wipe your ass after a Mexican dinner with tequila.
And stuff NEVER goes as planned. Not even the simplest 3 step repair does. That's when you will realize how alone you really are, LOL.

Unless there was a detailed step-by-step video, or your retired dad rebuilds engine for a living, I would not even consider it.
For a simple one or two component repair, we mere mortals take the plunge, and spend the afternoon on a small repair.
But, engine stuff is a whole 'nother ballgame. This is not a brake job, window regulator, fuel pump, or turn signal stalk repair.

Just giving you the flip side of the reality.
There is a significant chance you abort the project part way. Stumped and aborted.
Or screw it up. Or lose parts. Or mix stuff up rendering a useless pile of nothing.
You risk blowing up your engine and trashing it if you do a single thing wrong.
Life gets in the way once the project stalls, and it may never get finished. Ever.

What was supposed to be a lifetime hobby car
now becomes a lifetime pile of parts that your grandkids need to shovel out with a dumpster.
The internet is littered with thousands of examples of decades old aborted projects.
We all know guys in denial with dismantled cars that have not run since the 80s, 90s, and 00's.
And the reason those cars were parked were a lot less serious than an engine rebuild.

It can also sour relations with your garage neighbor as your rebuild becomes a multi-year disaster.

Hell, I know pro shops that have taken 2 years to do a rebuild.
Read this for some time estimates of what it takes professionals
Friend's engine has been in rebuild shop for 2 years. Is this normal?

Very few people can do this level of major DIY just by reading a book.
These are brilliant talented outliers posting on here, but do recognize them as such.
Hell, I bet most professional mechanics have never even rebuilt an engine.
Or, maybe it's easier than a brake job. What do I know.

Don't get in over your head.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by kger

Good advice as well. I really like the 3.0. I'm going to keep it. The decision now is just either (A) farm it out (I spoke with Tom Amon this morning and got a great feeling and thought the quote was fair and turnaround fast), or (B) do it myself.

Just a word of caution ... as is the case in all auto repair jobs, any quote you get now is going to be an estimate both in time and monetary costs because one simply can't tell what's needed until it's torn down and checked. Do get the worst case numbers so you can budget adequately for the might as wells.

[High Life]

Originally Posted by Coastr

Lots of guys with 1972 Ts took this advice and went to 2.7s and 3.0s. Later they realised the lost value was far greater than the cash saved. Fix the motor that belongs to the car, it’s not a Camry.

It makes me smile when people post a quote and then reply as though they never read it.

My logic and your characterization are not cohesive. I didn't suggest moving to another model. He could just buy another 3.0 car (same as before) and your analogy becomes bunk. (i.e. the 72T guy bought another 72T)

But to be honest the logic of the argument has nothing to do with the model of the car. I don't care if the PO buys a 72T or a "Camry" - its still a measure of opportunity cost. We are not measuring the end value of the car he is buying.

What is the value of the rebuild in dollars (time, headaches, parts, aggravation, worry, screw ups) ? What is that number?

Now compare that number to the difference between selling the car and buying another one (to keep it simple - the same one- so no lost in "future" investment).

Which amount is lesser?

Pick that number.

Emotion, risk and passion are inconsequential as (I agree with you) you cannot predict that from this decision. i.e. your analogy. So DONT factor that in.

[High Life]

Originally Posted by Adrock

I'm sure they could look for one with the studs already replaced... but by the time he tracks down such an engine, removes his engine, sells his existing one, installs the other one, he could have torn the engine down to a short block and replaced the heads studs himself.

I'm in exactly the same position right now with a broken head stud. Engine is out and on a stand, mostly torn down. So far, all it's going to cost me is some new studs, a new clutch kit and new gaskets. In my opinion if someone is mechanically savvy enough to do a valve adjustment themselves or remove / install and engine - then I can't see any reason why they couldn't replace their studs themselves.

Re-read my original quote - I would sell the whole car.. I personally wouldn't put any work in replacing the engine.. (plus you might lose value - numbers matching and all) - but it is another option for the OP..

My suggestion.. Put it up for sale (the whole car with broken head studs) - take a loss - get a check - buy another one (with a documented motor with no broken head studs).

Let the people who know what they are doing, worry about fixing it.

Just a suggestion...

[Bill Douglas]

If you do get someone else to do it you can speak to them with confidence. Read the Wayne book then ask for this and that to be done. Make sure certain seals are replaced and "while it's out" things get done. Who knows, maybe it's a good time to get new cam's and SSIs...

[pmax]

Originally Posted by High Life

My suggestion.. Put it up for sale (the whole car with broken head studs) - take a loss - get a check - buy another one (with a documented motor with no broken head studs).

Let the people who know what they are doing, worry about fixing it.

Just a suggestion...

Why stop there ?

To really save money, don't buy another. I heard you can drive a Miata for $10/month.

[Adrock]

Originally Posted by High Life

Re-read my original quote - I would sell the whole car.. I personally wouldn't put any work in replacing the engine.. (plus you might lose value - numbers matching and all) - but it is another option for the OP..

My suggestion.. Put it up for sale (the whole car with broken head studs) - take a loss - get a check - buy another one (with a documented motor with no broken head studs).

Let the people who know what they are doing, worry about fixing it.

Just a suggestion...

Hahaha! I thought maybe that's what you were talking about at first - then I thought... nah... why the hell would someone sell a whole car, because of 3 broken head studs?!
Far out... my wife had a cold last week... should have traded her in for a new one.

[High Life]

Originally Posted by pmax

Why stop there ?

To really save money, don't buy another. I heard you can drive a Miata for $10/month.

Exactly...

Plus when's the last time your heard of a Miata driver taking a loan out for a set of original Fuchs...

[High Life]

Originally Posted by Adrock

Hahaha! I thought maybe that's what you were talking about at first - then I thought... nah... why the hell would someone sell a whole car, because of 3 broken head studs?!
Far out... my wife had a cold last week... should have traded her in for a new one.

Its because you have to spend half the cars value (see other's estimates 10-15K) to replace those 3 head studs..

I cant estimate your wife's value, you decide if she's worth it - I have no comment on that..

[High Life]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

How accomplished & serious of a mechanic are you?

Everyone is very supportive, and that's great,
but I will offer another slice of truth and reality.

(sic)

Very few people can do this level of major DIY just by reading a book.
These are brilliant talented outliers posting on here, but do recognize them as such.
Hell, I bet most professional mechanics have never even rebuilt an engine.
Or, maybe it's easier than a brake job. What do I know.

Don't get in over your head.

Well said..

[Adrock]

Originally Posted by High Life

Its because you have to spend half the cars value (see other's estimates 10-15K) to replace those 3 head studs..

That brings me back to my original point... what happens when something goes wrong with the new car? Sell that as well?

Unless the person selling the car is going to be dishonest and not tell the buyer about the 3 broken head studs, then the buyer is going to include the cost of any work required in any offer they make on the car, so in my opinion the seller is going to take a hit whether they sell the car or pay for it to get fixed. Also, if they are buying a replacement car with less money, they are going to likely end up with a lesser car.

The OP said he likes working on the car, so I'm voting for diving in neck deep and getting it done. I doubt it would take a year unless he's working on it once a month or there abouts. Do some reading, spend a few hours here and there throughout the week tearing it down, grab some new gaskets and studs and put it back together. If you want you can get the heads sorted, get the P's and C's checked, cams ground. Or you could just leave it as is and put in the new gaskets and studs. A very cost effective option - especially if you didn't have any other issues prior to tear down.

I for one wouldn't be able to afford my car if I had to pay $10k+ to have a mechanic work on it. So, when i bought it, I accepted that anything that went wrong with it was for me to fix.

There is so much information on this forum, in Wayne's book, on You Tube (check out Home Built by Jeff for someone that learns as he goes on his Porsche). If you are reasonably confident at reading instructions, asking questions and wrenching on your car - you will be fine. However if you're in a rush to get the car back on the road ASAP, maybe you should consider paying someone to do it for you, as it will get turned around much quicker at a shop. But then you'll have no money left for those roadtrips that you're looking forward to.

[Adrock]

You could always take the engine out yourself, strip it down to the studs and then take it to a shop to do the rest. That should be a massive cost saving.
You could get them to put it back together for you or you could just get them to take the studs and and install the new ones for you and you can put it back together.

[High Life]

Originally Posted by Adrock

That brings me back to my original point... what happens when something goes wrong with the new car? Sell that as well?

The logic would be applied to the next scenario as well. A new decision must be made.
The person would again have to measure the explicit (and implicit) cost of fixing it vs selling it at a loss and purchasing another vehicle.

Originally Posted by Adrock

Unless the person selling the car is going to be dishonest and not tell the buyer about the 3 broken head studs, then the buyer is going to include the cost of any work required in any offer they make on the car, so in my opinion the seller is going to take a hit whether they sell the car or pay for it to get fixed. Also, if they are buying a replacement car with less money, they are going to likely end up with a lesser car.

See my original posts - the OP will have to discount the value of the car due to the broken head studs - this is the amount you are using to discover whether it is a viable decision or not. (this is the "HIT" you are referring to.. i.e the "less money") If the difference (the loss) is less than what it would be to fix the existing problem to include the OP time (both implicit and explicit costs) then sell. If not then fix it. It works on any repair decision (bad spark plug up to total restoration).

The new buyer decides whether the time invested and costs incurred is worth the investment. Someone mechanically inclined wont have to invest a lot of time researching, reading, asking the forum questions (etc.) as a first timer - so the investment of time (and possibly parts) would be cheaper and thus can make the "math" work.

[SCadaddle]

Here is my suggestion:

A running and driving car is worth a lot more than just a running car.
A running car is worth more than a non-running car.
A non-running car is worth more than a car missing the engine.
A car that is missing the engine, or a "roller", is worth the sum of the parts.

We discussed this same "broken head stud issue what do I do?" over on the 911 engine rebuilding forum a few months ago. Many of us used the term "Slippery Slope" as in you really won't know how much it's going to cost you to get the engine back in good running condition until you start tearing it apart. The bare minimum of just tearing it down and replacing the lower row of head studs and gaskets to build it back is a false economy. The "Slippery Slope" infers that since you are there, you may as well address other things as they become apparent. If someone pitched a car to me that only had the head studs replaced, I would see no value in that.

Kind of like flying all the way to Paris for a business meeting and hopping right back on the airplane without spending a few days to see the local attractions, knowing what it would cost you to go there in the future.

But alas, there was a fellow in that same discussion that builds 911 engines a part of his profession who claims "The Slippery Slope" is a myth. There is no "Slippery Slope". For a fixed and agreed upon fee, he would completely disassemble your engine, inspect and measure the wear parts, and provide you with a cost, to the dime, of what it will cost to put it back in good running health.

Of course if you can't afford to pay him to put it back together in good running health, you could probably load up and haul away your several boxes of parts that was once your complete engine. You've now spent the money to acquire his services and you now have a roller car with the engine in several boxes. What is that worth?

Perhaps at this point, I would list the car on BaT, with a comfortable reserve and be honest in the description with full disclosure about the head stud issue. See where it goes. I guarantee you PLENTY of these old cars are bought and sold with head stud issues.