Simplest 3.6 install into SC

[PushinRice]

Contemplating options going forward for my SC. Im at 168K And seriously considering a 3.6 swap instead of continuing to have to deal with aging CIS components.

I have swapped many emails with Steve T of Instant G about him performing a swap. He was been wonderful and patient with me even though I have not committed yet.

I'm really interested in reliability and simplicity as far as wiring, maintenance, etc. This is more important to me than overall power. The VRAM is enticing, but I'm not sure I need the extra power (especially with a 915) and the added components and costs.

What would people here consider the sweet spot for simplicity and functionality for the 3.6? Just looking to get in and drive and not to have to worry about making it home.

Thanks everyone

(pic of car for fun)

[-Levi-]

I was in a very similar place to you a few years back and went the timmings rout.
I also started with a budget build that ended up getting a bit out of control as I dug deeper, there are a few things you should consider and change as you get into this build (IE things I didn’t know)
1 most of my experience with timmings was positive, and I am happy with the engine and the price (well, that’s relative, but he charged what I would consider a fair price for the engine) however there were some shortcomings with “some” of his work.
A- From the day I ordered my engine, it took nearly 12 months to receive the engine, of course there is a bit more to the story. The first engine he started working on for me turned out bad, there was some block or head damage that would require a full rebuild (that motor had around 50K miles I believe) he offered to rebuild that engine and sell it to me for around $8000 more than the original quote, he also offered to do a different engine for me. I decided to do a different engine as I did not have the extra money for a rebuild. The next engine had something like 32K miles on it and was super clean; I ended up paying $2-3000 more for that engine as it was lower mileage (which was disappointing, however fair) I won’t fault him for the total time it took, however a year’s wait was…. It was a long year, lol.
B- Some of Timmings fabrication work and parts are… well they were not up to snuff. Three examples with one picture.
B1- The throttle cable is made from bicycle parts, a derailleur cable I believe, the whole setup is super cheap and I really have little confidence in it. The next time my engine is out I will be replacing his cable with one from Patric motorsports found here
911 - 930 Accelerator Throttle Cable Conversion Kit to 964 / 993 3.6L DME Engines By Patrick Motorsports Porsche & Mid Engine Performance Specialists
B2 the oil pipe he made was a total pos, I would not trust an expensive engine with that part he welded together, a picture is worth a thousand words.


B3, he used screws to hold together the engine shielding (the metal tin around the engine) there were like 5-8 screws that wer just clammed in to hold it together… it looks awful. When I have the engine out I plan to fix this myself.

C- There are a few things that he left out that I had to purchase on my own, the car did not come with an o2 sensor, $125 later I had one

D- The good!!! I had a MAF sensor fail at some point during the install, this is a $600 dollar part that Timmings replaced for free without hesitation.

D2- He was very helpful trouble shooting my no start issue, and his instructions were very well done. The car also runs like a top right now and he took a lot of the guess work out of the swap. OVERALL: I am happy and I would use him again, however I would replace the parts mentioned above
E- There are a few extra things to consider, the exhaust that comes with his kit is rather loud and drones like crazy, I ended up running a gt3rs muffler with electric cutouts to keep the noise down. In order to do the exhaust I had to but new race headers (cost for headers was $1500, muffler was $1500, electric cutouts were $500 and the exhaust work to build the piping was $2300) but I went very high end on that setup. Also, I had to do a fender mount and a front mount oil cooler, for the front h has to cut the tub to use the rsr plate from elephant racing, that was a lot of work and with the oil lines cost me somewhere around $3000.
F- At some point I will have to beef up my 915- there is now way long term it will hold the power… but I think you may already know that.
G- The power is soooooooo muchhhhh FUN!!!! I got to do a weekend run with some other Porsche guys… the difference between the stock 3.0 was crazy, not even close in performance. We had a lightly modified 930 in that group and my sc had no issues keeping up, even at 8500 feet above sea level. I got really tired of being the slowest car on the straits at my local track, this is no longer an issue. Also the engine is very streetable, even more so than the stock 3.0, Its just so easy to drive day to day with the extra power… it just feels right.

Feel free to pm me or give me a call if you want more info… I would be more than happy to chat more about the swap….. sorry about any spelling or sentence structure in my reply, I’m doing this on my ipad and forgot my reading glasses…

here's a link to my progress, goes a bit more in detail.
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/906519-81-911-sc-95-3-6-vram-swap-track-hot-rod-build-help.html
GOOD LUCK!

[umgang]

Depends on experience of the person / people who help you with your project, who does the work, parts used.
I did a 3.6 conversion with a 1975 911S with a 915 magnesium case trans 15 yrs ago.
Steve Weiner / Rennsport Systems [ porsche@rennsportsystems.com] and Jeff Gamroth [rothsport.com] helped me with it.
He has done over 100 of these over the years.
I have had no problems- the car has been dependable, no failures, never stranded- and a hoot to drive!
btw_ this has been a street car, a DE car, and a Club Racer in GT3 class; now a street car again.

But i will preface that it is not just putting an engine in.
For the car to be really sublime you will need to make adjustments to suspension and brakes.
Just like the Porsche factory: it is a balancing act of power, braking, and suspension.

Hope this helps
Nic

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by PushinRice

I have 2 broken head studs on my SC. Contemplating options going forward. At 168K I'm seriously considering a 3.6 swap instead of rebuilding the 3.0 and continuing to have to deal with aging CIS components.

I have swapped many emails with Steve T of Instant G about him performing a swap. He was been wonderful and patient with me even though I have not committed yet.

I'm really interested in reliability and simplicity as far as wiring, maintenance, etc. This is more important to me than overall power. The VRAM is enticing, but I'm not sure I need the extra power (especially with a 915) and the added components and costs.

What would people here consider the sweet spot for simplicity and functionality for the 3.6? Just looking to get in and drive and not to have to worry about making it home.

Thanks everyone

(pic of car for fun)

I've had almost every 3.6 variant in my '76 Carrera, '93 964 stock, '973.8 RS, '95 non vram w/ RS cams.

The winner by far is the '95 3.6 slightly modified









it's like the Goldilocks story
964 was good but I wanted more
993RS was great but too much even for a late RoW 915 trans
non vram 993 w/ some minow mods is perfect

Steve knows his stuff and is great to work w/, you'll be happy if he does the install

[darrin]

also keep in mind that even the newest aircooled 3.6 is now 20+ years old. This is no longer a situation where the thought process is rebuild existing OR replace with 3.6. Instead, it's rebuild existing or find new 3.6 to rebuild and then retrofit into car.

[3rd_gear_Ted]

For us air cooled guys;
The Mezger 3.6 liter is the culmination of air cooled motor development.
Since 2015, I've been beating on the big tracks the 3.6 motor I purchased from Steve @ I.G.
BTW, your 915 is good to 300 HP with a LSD
Full flow to big oil cooler(s) is a major reliability factor going forward.
Just had to change one cam tower gasket due to leakage.
My shop mechanic checked Cam timing from rebuild, dead nuts.

[Busta Rib]

Coming from someone who did a 3.6 conversion recently, I recommend exploring rebuilding your 3.0. To do a proper 3.6 conversion, it will cost about $30K (maybe more for a 993 engine), including a rebuilt 3.6. The 3.6 engines are no longer bargains.

The alternative is to rebuild your 3.0 engine. You will not get the power of a 3.6 but there is a lot of bang for the buck. For about $15-20K, you get a reliable and strong engine with 220-230 hp, especially if you convert to EFI. It is completely plug and play as well and doesn't require all the conversion bits/wiring/etc. The lower cost and effort are compelling, IMO, if you can live with the lower power. The 3.0s are hearty engines and rev very well with good low-end power (relatively).

If money is not a concern, then a 95 3.6 would be the way to go for sure. Best of both worlds. But if I had to do it all over again, I would have rebuilt my 2.7, maybe punched it out to 2.9, added EFI, and for $20K, I would have had a practically new engine with good power. Easy installation as well.

I do enjoy the 3.6 in my car now but it came with a high toll in dollars, time, and hassle. Good luck with whatever you choose.

[dwelle]

keep the 3.0 and build a short stroke 3.2 with EFI!

i have a '95 3.6 in my 914, and it's a FAST motor no doubt. but there is SO much that goes into making these motors work in the older cars. i think busta is spot on in that doing the conversion now will cost a small fortune and take a lot of time to get right.

for a lot less $$ and downtime you could keep the motor you have and build in some extra performance. a 3.2SS with ITB's and a proper exhaust would rip in your car, and the throttle response will be light years better than what you have now. and you'd have a known, fresh motor...

[-Levi-]

also, just to add another financial thought.

my swap cost just north of $30K (yikes!!!) however I was able to get $7000 back from my engine and misc parts sold off my car. you cannot get anywhere near the power from a 3.0 for that money, and you will be within $5000 of a 3.0 rebuild...

however.... to be hones.... if I could do it all over again I would have some my sc for $30,000 or so, used the 30Kish for the swap and would own a nice 997 turbo or 996 gt3 (that was an option for $60 3 years ago... not so much now)
this conversion will set you back a very nice Cayman s..... for whatever its worth.

[danco_]

I've been debating this as well. I have strong, stock 3.2 with MAF conversion and tuning by Steve Wong pushing 215whp. It needs nothing, runs very well, and is correct or my car.

But needs =/= wants. I want another 100hp. A modifed 3.6L would get me there, but is it worth the cost of the swap? I am still deciding.

[Geronimo]

GAWD, every time I read an engine thread I get a little ill. 15-20K for 230HP is just insane. I LOVE my Porsche buy i'm beginning to think that they are just a rich mans car. I should have bee a doctor I guess... It's just getting a bit depressing thinking about the bills that may come my way for performance that is Minivan at best Hehehehe.

[darrin]

Originally Posted by Geronimo

GAWD, every time I read an engine thread I get a little ill. 15-20K for 230HP is just insane. I LOVE my Porsche buy i'm beginning to think that they are just a rich mans car. I should have bee a doctor I guess... It's just getting a bit depressing thinking about the bills that may come my way for performance that is Minivan at best Hehehehe.

They say -- It's a lot more entertaining to drive a (fun to drive) slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow, lot more to shuffling a 911 around on the road than drag racing hondas --also, remember that every ten pounds of weight removed from a car is the equivalent of adding an additional number to your HP total --

[Bill Verburg]

This is why you do a 3.6

The 3.8 doesn't care what gear you are in most of the time, the stock C3 3liter was a potent and fun engine but there is just no comparison to even a 964 let alone the NVR 993



Gotta disagree wrt the trans, a 3.6 either 964 or even 993 NVR will b e fine and the trans will will be happy, but when i had the 300+HP 993RS engine in there I could make the trans weep like baby w/ a load in it's pants, particularly in the lower gears at wot. in 1st the 3.8's 255 lb-ft of torque gets multiplied 10.8x to 2700+lb-ft, things twist and get out of alignment at that point.

[dwelle]

Originally Posted by danco_

I've been debating this as well. I have strong, stock 3.2 with MAF conversion and tuning by Steve Wong pushing 215whp. It needs nothing, runs very well, and is correct or my car.

But needs =/= wants. I want another 100hp. A modifed 3.6L would get me there, but is it worth the cost of the swap? I am still deciding.

a modified 3.6 will need a modified 915 (unless you have a G50 car) and that is more money still.

fwiw, i have a 3.6 in one of my cars, but i'm straight giddy about the twin plug 2.8 i'm planning to build for my '74.

it isn't all about horsepower at the end of the day...

[911SauCy]

+1 for 3.2SS with cams and ITBs for the $$

[PushinRice]

Thanks guys. A lot to think about here. A lot of good points made about a number of solutions. Appreciated

[cnielsen]

After doing a few 3.6 swaps and chasing down the HP rabbit hole, I am also in favor of keeping your 3.0 and building a nice peaky motor with EFI. It'll have much more character, fun to drive and an easier swap...since it already belongs there.

[sithot]

Fix the 3.0. There's a car in my garage that's capable of high triple digits and my favorite is still the '67 coupe with a stock 2.0.

The pitfalls of chasing horsepower?
There are a lot of modern 4 cylinder cars will still dust you in a drag race even with a 3.6.

OTOH, modern EFI on the 3.6 is nice; so is a 3.2 setup. That would be the only draw for me. Get in, buckle up, turn the key.... and GO.

Good luck.

[Bill Verburg]

For track use you want hp because you always wind it out, close ratio gearing is a plus for this. For street use torque is king, here you are rarely winding it out.

[sithot]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

For track use you want hp because you always wind it out, close ratio gearing is a plus for this. For street use torque is king, here you are rarely winding it out.

Absolutely spot on and the 3.6 has that covered.