no "ignition trigger" on permatune 2.7

mrrolleyes · 05:08 PM

please bare with me here..

preface.... car was running fine. started to degrease the motor and do a little bit of cleaning and hosed off lightly, started it, turned it around and then light degrease round 2 with some more hose. mainly on the sides of the motor. this time no start... tried to kick over but no luck.

let it dry over night and started this morning for a second and cut out. and a ploom of smoke and done.

jimtweet being awesome has helped me over the phone as much as he can but im at a dead end for now.

car has permatune and we thought the cdi box was beat. called them and they said text xyz and im getting a green light but no red (ignition trigger)

im getting power to pin 14 on the harness so i know its getting power thru the alternator. im also getting power to the red on the cdi box (3 pin setup). car will turn over but its not "kicking"
also there is no "whine" from the box, not sure if the perma's have that whine line the regular cdi box does.

ran to the parts store and grabbed a 8202 MSD coil because some searching said that might be the issue. and NOPE still no red light.

points were done about 6 months ago but might of gotten wet?

TIA as usual.

mrrolleyes · 09-05-2018, 04:48 PM

And this is how you check lights when you are alone

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mysocal911 · 09-05-2018, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrolleyes

car has permatune

And who put that in?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrolleyes

points were done about 6 months ago but might of gotten wet?

And you checked that the points' signal varies from 12V to ground with a test light, right? If so,
the box is bad, since you changed the coil and you have 12V on the middle pin to the box.

timmy2 · timmy2's Garage

Wet cap and points? Nah, couldn’t be that simple. Verify opening and closing of points as mentioned.

mrrolleyes · 09-05-2018, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mysocal911

And who put that in?

And you checked that the points' signal varies from 12V to ground with a test light, right? If so,
the box is bad, since you changed the coil and you have 12V on the middle pin to the box.

in the car when purchased 2015 date code

googling how to check point signal...

HarryD · 09-05-2018, 08:46 PM

If you are not having a spark, try this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryD

To get a spark to the spark plug in the engine. Several things need to happen. First, you need power to the CDI. Next you need to have a way to trigger the CDI (the points do this by opening and closing). Then the CDI will then send a pulse to the coil which will increase the voltage and send it through the high tension lead to the rotor and to the selected spark plug. You need to verify that each step in this chain is working.

1) Verify that the CDI is getting power. Do you hear it wining (if it is a Bosch unit)? If so, you are good to go.

2) Verify that the CDI is producing power to make a spark. You can do this with a "telegraph" test. Take the high tension lead off of the center of the distributor and put a spark plug on it. Ground the threaded part. With your plug attached to the center lead, open the distributor, remove the rotor, place your key in the run position, and manually open and close the points. Each time you cycle, you should see a spark from the plug. If you do not, you may have a bad CDI.

3) Verify that the coil gets a signal when you crank. Replace the rotor and distributor cap. Leave the plug on the center high tension lead. Crank the engine. Do you see a spark? If so, you are getting spark to the distributor. If not, your point gap may be off or there is some other problem with the connections.

4) Verify that the spark goes to the spark plug wires. Reattach the center lead to the distributor. Attach you spark plug to one of the leads going to the cylinder spark plugs and ground. Crank engine. If you see a spark you may have a timing problem. If no spark, you have a problem with your rotor or distributor cap or your wires are improperly seated.

Do a search here as there are many threads on this topic. Look especially for the ones by early_s_man. Warren (RIP) left a great deal of knowledge on troubleshooting this problem.

This thread may be handy too: Ignition Questions

timmy2 · timmy2's Garage

BTW power to CDI comes to the back from a switched power fuse at the front fuse panel, not from the 14 pin connector. It then goes to one of the 3 rear fuses.
Power from engine harness 14 pin is constant power from alt, via starter, via battery and runs to a different fuse on the rear fuse panel.

mrrolleyes · 09-06-2018, 03:42 AM

well according to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IblZtEmM26E

with wire on coil negative i get nothing "positive" on the test light when turning the motor by hand.

jimtweet · jimtweet's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmy2

BTW power to CDI comes to the back from a switched power fuse at the front fuse panel, not from the 14 pin connector. It then goes to one of the 3 rear fuses.
Power from engine harness 14 pin is constant power from alt, via starter, via battery and runs to a different fuse on the rear fuse panel.

I learn new stuff everyday. Thank you Timmy. I thought power wire split off alternator and that’s what went through the 14 pin to power CDI. Then there was a ignition signal wire.

Is this different from 3pin to 6pin CDI boxes ?

obscene · 09-06-2018, 05:03 AM

I could try to find time to come up and help if you don't resolve this soon.

I'd throw a test light on the points signal then work backwards from there. My car had a similar issue before, and it just turned out to be bad points.

mrrolleyes · 09-06-2018, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obscene

I could try to find time to come up and help if you don't resolve this soon.

I'd throw a test light on the points signal then work backwards from there. My car had a similar issue before, and it just turned out to be bad points.

benny that would be awesome! points are over my head... im sending you a PM.

timmy2 · timmy2's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimtweet

I learn new stuff everyday. Thank you Timmy. I thought power wire split off alternator and that’s what went through the 14 pin to power CDI. Then there was a ignition signal wire.

Is this different from 3pin to 6pin CDI boxes ?

No difference. All switched power to CDI comes from front of car.

mysocal911 · 09-06-2018, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrolleyes

well according to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IblZtEmM26E

with wire on coil negative i get nothing "positive" on the test light when turning the motor by hand.

Totally non-applicable! A CDI output signal CAN'T be tested with a testlight, only can be used to check the points' signal.
Using a testlight on the coil can possibly damage a CDI.

Fred Winterburn · 09-06-2018, 03:18 PM

You need to put the test light on the points connection at the distributor to see if the points are working correctly, not the coil negative. The coil negative with the CDI will be at ground potential always and your test light won't light. The video is showing how it can be done with the Kettering system with the coil negative connected directly to the points. With CDI, the points circuit is divorced from the high voltage circuit to the coil. Fred

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrolleyes

well according to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IblZtEmM26E

with wire on coil negative i get nothing "positive" on the test light when turning the motor by hand.

dicklague · dicklague's Garage

You could take a simple square wave generator and feed a signal to the CDI. This would simulate the points signal.

something like this.....CDI TESTER SQUARE WAVE GENERATOR - IG3TECH

Jonny H · 09-06-2018, 10:57 PM

^. Or simply ground and release pin ‘C’.

obscene · 09-07-2018, 04:55 AM

yeah let me just dig out my simple square wave generator

LUFTKUL · 09-07-2018, 05:27 AM

Not exactly what you're asking, but I'll share my experience with Permatune and my '77...

After lots of intermittent problems with my Permatune -old original PT CDI and new, expensive fancy one - and points I swapped them both out for a MSD Streetfire and Petronix ignitor. Never had another issue.

mrrolleyes · 09-07-2018, 06:58 AM

car is running. thank you everyone.

i got a crash corse last night on points.

we needed to clean the points and pickup it seems like the rotor was not making a solid connection with the cap in the center. so we raised it up a tiny bit to get it to fire. new cap and rotor are ordered.

mysocal911 · 09-07-2018, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrolleyes

car is running. thank you everyone.

i got a crash corse last night on points.

we needed to clean the points and pickup it seems like the rotor was not making a solid connection with the cap in the center. so we raised it up a tiny bit to get it to fire. new cap and rotor are ordered.

Removal of the coil wire from the distributor and PLACED near engine metal should've found that immediately.
One always assumes EVERYONE thinks of the VERY basics when troubleshooting.