Another way to get LED headlights...

[toddetch]

Today I upgrade my headlights on my '80 SC Targa. I wanted to keep my sugar scoops, so I bought the DOT-approved H4 Hellas, new gaskets, and new plastic inside rims for the scoops from our host for about $200. I found some H4 LED bulbs on Amazon for $50 that I bought and installed in place of the halogen bulbs that came in the H4s.

We drove it tonight and the difference is amazing - I've been living with my crappy original sealed beams because I had other things to address. But, now for $250 it is a huge difference. I'll try to remember to come back and comment on this in future months on how they are performing. If you're interested in the bulbs, search for Cougar Motor LED Headlight Bulbs All-in-One Conversion Kit - H4 (9003 Hi/Low).

I'll probably upgrade all my side markers, blinkers, etc. to one of the other LED options out there next.

[Marc718B]

Great to hear toddetch! It would be great if you could do a write up on steps involved, parts # and links so that other can benefit from your experience (like me :-) ).

[ADDvanced]

You should post before after pics.

From what I understand, LED drop in bulbs APPEAR brighter, as they scatter a ton of light right in front of the car, but basically none of them throw light very far ahead, and are often dimmer than the halogens.

[OldSpool87]

Originally Posted by ADDvanced

You should post before after pics.

From what I understand, LED drop in bulbs APPEAR brighter, as they scatter a ton of light right in front of the car, but basically none of them throw light very far ahead, and are often dimmer than the halogens.

Also- interested in how these appear to oncoming drivers. Is there good cut off to avoid blinding other drivers?

[proporsche]

I did the same a couple of month ago as tod..very happy with the H4 light bulb which has its own cooling fan in it.
No problem with upcoming traffic

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by ADDvanced

You should post before after pics.

From what I understand, LED drop in bulbs APPEAR brighter, as they scatter a ton of light right in front of the car, but basically none of them throw light very far ahead, and are often dimmer than the halogens.

You are absolutely correct. The 6000K LED light temp versus Halogen 3700k light temp makes the LED bulbs appear brighter but is mainly an illusion.
Also the excessive light splash in front of the car tends make your pupils
contract giving worse night vision, not to mention the horrible cutoff on the low beams due to trying to use LED bulbs with the H4 patterned front lenses. I pity oncoming motorists! I tried LED bulbs in my H4s and threw them in the trash after one night's use. Just my $.02
The CandlePower forum says the best bulb for an H4 is the Phillips
X-treme Vision +130% halogen bulb. I have installed them and love
them. Far off high beam vision is the best I've ever seen.

[76FJ55]

Originally Posted by uwanna

You are absolutely correct. The 6000K LED light temp versus Halogen 3700k light temp makes the LED bulbs appear brighter but is mainly an illusion.
Also the excessive light splash in front of the car tends make your pupils
contract giving worse night vision, not to mention the horrible cutoff on the low beams due to trying to use LED bulbs with the H4 patterned front lenses. I pity oncoming motorists! I tried LED bulbs in my H4s and threw them in the trash after one night's use. Just my $.02
The CandlePower forum says the best bulb for an H4 is the Phillips
X-treme Vision +130% halogen bulb. I have installed them and love
them. Far off high beam vision is the best I've ever seen.

I went through this with the 8" Euro H4s in my 928 and came to this exact conclusion. Initially I was like "WOW the LEDs are awesome bright", but then after spending a few days actually driving with them I stuck halogens back in and was like "WOW these (yellowish) Halogens work so much better than those LEDs". the initial impression is that LEDs are great but my experience is the the patern and color of the Halogen actually creates much more usable lightn and in the right place. I would suggest H4 reflectors and good high quality H4 bulbs, if you are interested in the best night driving experience. I think I'm running the same Phillips X-treme lights mentioned above.

I did end up finding a use for one of the LEDs though. My brother had an old Yamaha 2 stroke running a 6 volt system with a super dim bulb, and since the LEDs have an internal regulator, they would actually accept the 6V input and still function correctly, so if you know anyone with a 6V system that needs headlights the LEDs are a viable option for them.

[darrin]

pic of the cutoffs showing against a flat surface (i.e. aiming foto) would be very helpful here -- noticed a fundamental difference when I swapped h4 halogen bulb assemblies for my us sealed beams in my sugar scoops -- like my 911's halogen bulb h4 output better than my modern US spec HID and LED setups in my other cars.

[rokemester]

Originally Posted by 76FJ55

I went through this with the 8" Euro H4s in my 928 and came to this exact conclusion. Initially I was like "WOW the LEDs are awesome bright", but then after spending a few days actually driving with them I stuck halogens back in and was like "WOW these (yellowish) Halogens work so much better than those LEDs". the initial impression is that LEDs are great but my experience is the the patern and color of the Halogen actually creates much more usable lightn and in the right place. I would suggest H4 reflectors and good high quality H4 bulbs, if you are interested in the best night driving experience. I think I'm running the same Phillips X-treme lights mentioned above.

I did end up finding a use for one of the LEDs though. My brother had an old Yamaha 2 stroke running a 6 volt system with a super dim bulb, and since the LEDs have an internal regulator, they would actually accept the 6V input and still function correctly, so if you know anyone with a 6V system that needs headlights the LEDs are a viable option for them.

Great catch! I’ve been wondering if I can leverage LED lighting technology for my 66 Bug, still clinging faithfully to 6V system.

[93nav]

How long have you been running the Extrems? I was looking at new bulbs for my daily driver (non-porsche), and from what I read, the bulbs promising better performance worked great, until they burnt out. They did not last seem to last more than a year with regular use. Just curious because I really notice the poor performance of the lights in my 911.

Originally Posted by uwanna

You are absolutely correct. The 6000K LED light temp versus Halogen 3700k light temp makes the LED bulbs appear brighter but is mainly an illusion.
Also the excessive light splash in front of the car tends make your pupils
contract giving worse night vision, not to mention the horrible cutoff on the low beams due to trying to use LED bulbs with the H4 patterned front lenses. I pity oncoming motorists! I tried LED bulbs in my H4s and threw them in the trash after one night's use. Just my $.02
The CandlePower forum says the best bulb for an H4 is the Phillips
X-treme Vision +130% halogen bulb. I have installed them and love
them. Far off high beam vision is the best I've ever seen.

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by 93nav

How long have you been running the Extrems? I was looking at new bulbs for my daily driver (non-porsche), and from what I read, the bulbs promising better performance worked great, until they burnt out. They did not last seem to last more than a year with regular use. Just curious because I really notice the poor performance of the lights in my 911.

The X-treme Phillips +130 bulbs show 450hrs on the package (which is
the best of the high output bulbs available) In my thinking, $25-30 for
a pair these bulbs is worth the price for better lighting over cheaper units. (search Amazon for great prices)
The bulbs that really burn out fast are 100 watt bulbs, that really give no better usable light. The Phillips are 55watt.

[uwanna]

The problem with LED bulbs in H4 housings is you are injecting a completely different light source into a precisely designed and focused optical device. The H4 halogen bulb filament radiates light in a 360 deg
field using the complete reflector area, whereas the LED unit directs light in two directions, left and right, light that then bounces all over the reflector and creates hot spots, shadows and distortions. The precise focus of the unit is now all over the place! Compare the diagrams below, especially the Halogen bulb next to the LED and you can see the problem. The Halogen provides precise focus on the high beam that reaches "way out there" and the low beam filament is placed to focus at a lower angle and use the front lens to provide cutoff, which the LED can never do.









As far as the updated Phillips bulbs, read this from the CandlePower forum:

Lumen numbers are not the whole story. If they were, there would be no such thing as an H1 +50, +60, +100, etc; the max you could go would be H1 +15. Compared to a standard bulb, filament changes are made to create the "Plus" (+30, +50, +80, +90, +100...) type bulbs: generally the filament is wound with tighter pitch on a smaller mandrel. This gives increased filament luminance and improved beam focus (because the filament more closely approximates a point source). As a result, seeing distance is longer. Light color is whiter and less brown. The "plus" numbers refer to the "up to" increase in light at a point within the beam when the bulb is used in a headlamp, not to the luminous flux of the bulb itself. In order to provide acceptable service life from a "Plus" bulb, the fill gas is upgraded and its pressure within the envelope is optimized. Halogen bulbs are actually a very technologically intricate product; there are many design and construction parameters that can be altered to maximize lifespan, maximize output, or strike a balance somewhere in between.
__

[175K911]

Originally Posted by 93nav

How long have you been running the Extrems? I was looking at new bulbs for my daily driver (non-porsche), and from what I read, the bulbs promising better performance worked great, until they burnt out. They did not last seem to last more than a year with regular use. Just curious because I really notice the poor performance of the lights in my 911.

Tried them in my GMC Yukon Denali a couple years ago and was replacing bulbs every 4-6 months which is a pain since on one side the whole air intake assembly needs to come out. For the small increase in lighting it wasn’t worth the trouble

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by 175K911

Tried them in my GMC Yukon Denali a couple years ago and was replacing bulbs every 4-6 months which is a pain since on one side the whole air intake assembly needs to come out. For the small increase in lighting it wasn’t worth the trouble

Yeah, I agree if using them in a daily driver with lots of night time driving
they will not last as long, but if you think they are short lived try the
100watt H4 bulbs that a lot of folks on this forum opt for. They run hot as a firecracker, can indeed melt the H4 electrical connector and wiring and are VERY short lived. I guess it's different strokes for different folks.
My 911 is pretty much a weekend fun car as I suspect many on this forum would admit to, so 450hrs of night time driving would take a loong
time. I just really like the long range focus of these bulbs so much, I'll
live with a shorter life.

[toddetch]

@Marc718B - procedure is really straightforward. You can pretty much just start taking it apart and go from there. But it is described in Wayne'1 101 Project book and here: https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/101_Projects_Porsche_911/71-H4_Headlamp_Upgrade/71-H4_Headlamp_Upgrade.htm

In terms of parts I used:
https://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/PEL_search_2016.cgi?command=DWsearch&description=PEL-H4-70477
https://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/pel_search_2016.cgi?command=DWsearch&make=POR&description=911-631-115-02-M136 (always a good idea to replace gaskets...)
https://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ksearch/pel_search_2016.cgi?command=DWsearch&make=POR&description=911-631-133-01-M44 (mine were faded - look much better now)

In terms of the LED bulbs, I bought at another site - above I gave the search term to find it.

@ADDvanced here are a couple of pics:

Before (okay - I have no idea why this pic is upside down. On my computer it is right side up and I can't figure out how to correct it on this forum - sorry):



After:



Here is the biggest issue I had - the driver's side light bucket was a mess of rust. I spent a long time cleaning that up and then shooting some high temp paint on it.



@proporsche - thanks for the comment, good to know yours was successful.

@uwanna - thanks for the details.

So, now I've driven with them twice. I'll need to get my wife to go out and drive in oncoming traffic to get the download on how they are to drive towards. I did notice one thing last night - to the right, on the pavement or on the walls of a tunnel, I can see three little bands of light. I guess that is some leakage with the aiming, and that's what I'd like to get feedback on from oncoming traffic. Depending on what I hear after getting my wife to take a look, I'll consider putting the halogen bulbs back in.

My assumption was that since they are supposed to be direct drop-in replacements for H4s, that they would work for form, fit, and function. Function - obviously, they light my way. Fit - perfect, they are obviously designed to fit right into the lamp, with all the correctly built little metal tabs to slot it in directly. Form - I guess that's the question, does it behave as expected?

I will report back this weekend.

[proporsche]

This is interesting .The light optics on your H4 are very different then mine.I got mine Hella H4 with an European optics set up.i got then back in LA.
Your set up looks on H5 .Which i sometimes use too.1/2 year H4 another half H5

Are all those H4 headlight people use with this US optics and they call it Euro H4..????
My hella

euro optics

[dicklague]

Originally Posted by uwanna

The problem with LED bulbs in H4 housings is you are injecting a completely different light source into a precisely designed and focused optical device. The H4 halogen bulb filament radiates light in a 360 deg
field using the complete reflector area, whereas the LED unit directs light in two directions, left and right, light that then bounces all over the reflector and creates hot spots, shadows and distortions. The precise focus of the unit is now all over the place! Compare the diagrams below, especially the Halogen bulb next to the LED and you can see the problem. The Halogen provides precise focus on the high beam that reaches "way out there" and the low beam filament is placed to focus at a lower angle and use the front lens to provide cutoff, which the LED can never do.









As far as the updated Phillips bulbs, read this from the CandlePower forum:

Lumen numbers are not the whole story. If they were, there would be no such thing as an H1 +50, +60, +100, etc; the max you could go would be H1 +15. Compared to a standard bulb, filament changes are made to create the "Plus" (+30, +50, +80, +90, +100...) type bulbs: generally the filament is wound with tighter pitch on a smaller mandrel. This gives increased filament luminance and improved beam focus (because the filament more closely approximates a point source). As a result, seeing distance is longer. Light color is whiter and less brown. The "plus" numbers refer to the "up to" increase in light at a point within the beam when the bulb is used in a headlamp, not to the luminous flux of the bulb itself. In order to provide acceptable service life from a "Plus" bulb, the fill gas is upgraded and its pressure within the envelope is optimized. Halogen bulbs are actually a very technologically intricate product; there are many design and construction parameters that can be altered to maximize lifespan, maximize output, or strike a balance somewhere in between.
__

I have heard this argument so many times.....I DON'T BUY IT.

In reality the HI and Lo light sources are just a few MM different for LED and Quartz. You can make it look dramatic in a drawing, but it does not work that way in reality.

Actually I am surprised that this thread went on for many posts before anti-LED argument came up.

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by toddetch

@ADDvanced here are a couple of pics:

Before (okay - I have no idea why this pic is upside down. On my computer it is right side up and I can't figure out how to correct it on this forum - sorry):



After:



I did notice one thing last night - to the right, on the pavement or on the walls of a tunnel, I can see three little bands of light. I guess that is some leakage with the aiming, and that's what I'd like to get feedback on from oncoming traffic.

Your pictures perfectly demonstrate the problem with the upfront light splash from LED bulbs. Notice how the Halogens are very tightly focused in the distance whereas the LEDs are a big splash blur. Also the bands of light you mention are from unfocused light from the LEDs bouncing all over the reflector.

This is an excerpt from Daniel Stern Lighting and explains what I was trying explain about the strong foreground brightness problem with LED H4 bulbs:

It's tricky to judge headlamp beam performance without a lot of knowledge, a lot of training and a lot of special equipment, because subjective perceptions are very misleading. Having a lot of strong light in the foreground, that is on the road close to the car and out to the sides, is very comforting and reliably produces a strong impression of "good headlights". The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, worsening your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits".
____

In closing, all I can say is "You spends yo money on what makes YOU happy"!

[toddetch]

To be clear, the first picture is with the original, 38-year-old "ball of light" sealed beam headlamps, not the halogens. Frankly, it is dangerous to drive with them at night.

Originally Posted by uwanna

Your pictures perfectly demonstrate the problem with the upfront light splash from LED bulbs. Notice how the Halogens are very tightly focused in the distance whereas the LEDs are a big splash blur. Also the bands of light you mention are from unfocused light from the LEDs bouncing all over the reflector.

This is an excerpt from Daniel Stern Lighting and explains what I was trying explain about the strong foreground brightness problem with LED H4 bulbs:

It's tricky to judge headlamp beam performance without a lot of knowledge, a lot of training and a lot of special equipment, because subjective perceptions are very misleading. Having a lot of strong light in the foreground, that is on the road close to the car and out to the sides, is very comforting and reliably produces a strong impression of "good headlights". The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, worsening your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits".
____

In closing, all I can say is "You spends yo money on what makes YOU happy"!

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by toddetch

To be clear, the first picture is with the original, 38-year-old "ball of light" sealed beam headlamps, not the halogens. Frankly, it is dangerous to drive with them at night.

Glad you cleared that up, but the same idea applies as far as focus. It's
just that the old incandescent bulbs don't have the power of the halogens. The light splash of the LEDs remains the problem.
Good luck with your trials and use what you prefer.