Yet another engine lift table, but with tilt.

[Quasimoto]

After reading quite a few threads about the merits of using a lift table or a transmission jack for engine removal, I decided that a lift table might work best for my 4-post lift setup. I did however like the fact that some of the trans jacks allowed for tilt.

After stealing a few ideas from this thread, and then dug around in my scrap parts stash and found enough aluminum extrusion and brackets to graft something onto the table.
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/681825-transmission-jack-engine-removal.html


A piece of 5/8 UNC threaded rod, and some trunnions I knocked up on the lathe...


Built a small frame from 1.5" aluminum extrusion, and scabbed some brackets for a pivot...


Here's a closeup of the tilt adjuster...


Hated using this nice piece of plywood, but it's scrap from a cabinet job...


Just need to add some blocks to support the heat exchangers and trans now.

[Garen]

Very cool! The plywood looks great, seal it with a decent urethane coating and I bet it stays clean with wipe-downs after each engine drop.

[dw1]

Thanks. This is something I could put together relatively easily and I really like the tilt feature. 80/20 is wonderful stuff.

For those who don't know, 80/20 Inc provides the extremely common modular building system parts which have largely replaced weldment frames in many applications.

[Quasimoto]

I don’t have a welder in my garage anymore, I may need to rethink that decision...

[pmax]

Beats the two jack tango !

[al lkosmal]

Very nice......

[dannobee]

Looks great. One thing that would make it work a tiny bit better is a knob handle from MSC Direct or Grainger for the all thread. In the heat of the moment, a knob is more convenient than grabbing a wrench or socket and ratchet.

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06927586

https://www.grainger.com/product/KIPP-Hand-Knob-3DGC9

[boyt911sc]

Impressive work and like the design. Looks very neat and practical. Good job.

Tony

[scotricker]

That's just beautiful ! Well done. And I thought I was such a smart-guy with my hacked together plywood, transmission jack and harbor freight furniture rollers. Great job.

[Dpmulvan]

So you use it a couple times then it sits taking up 4 sq feet of precious garage space. You start stacking boxes, part, tools et on top of it. Finally the day arrives 2 years later when you need to use it again. Your in a hurry don’t feel like moving all the crap off it so you use your floor jack with a board on top.

['78 SC]

Beautiful work. Should be a dream to use.

Some questions:

• Which way does the drivetrain sit on the table? Rear of engine closer to lift table handle?
  
• Will you use this for both engine only and engine with transmission removal?
  
• Have you taken into account the location of the center of gravity? There's a lot of weight concentrated at one end of your mechanism - is all the hardware up to the task. Is it strong enough laterally to avoid buckling?
  
• Guiding the transmission shift rod into the chassis opening requires quite a bit of tilt. How much vertical travel do you have? It takes a lot.

I'm loathe to display my crude handiwork next to yours, but it illustrates some considerations:

• The center of gravity of the engine with transmission is between the sump plate and flywheel, so nearly the entire weight of the drive train is on one set of supports. I used a pair of jackstands to be sure the supports are strong enough and stable enough, especially laterally.
  
• I use the lift extensions on my MaxJax to get the tail up for more clearance, but this means the drivetrain is slightly nose down when aligned with the rear mounts. I run out of travel with the small bottle jack that supports the rear of the engine and have to reposition it for the final alignment.
  
• The lift table handle is behind the rear bumper when installing the engine. This makes it more accessible when maneuvering and jacking.
  
• I use ratchet straps to secure the drivetrain to the platform and to limit travel.
  
• The engine is tall at the fan (and CIS), the bumper hangs down a long way, the lift table has limited travel and the MaxJax has limited travel. All this conspires to make it difficult to clear the rear bumper with the fan and still get the mounts up to the chassis. I ended up adding another set of safety bar holes to the MaxJax columns so I could lower the chassis slightly at the end when mating up the mounting points.

Again, nice work on the lift. Be sure it is strong enough and stable enough to deal with all the loads it will endure.

[Quasimoto]

Originally Posted by dannobee

Looks great. One thing that would make it work a tiny bit better is a knob handle from MSC Direct or Grainger for the all thread.

Definitely a good idea, I just didn't have a leftover bit in my rummage pile, so a nut got welded on for starters.

Originally Posted by Dpmulvan

So you use it a couple times then it sits taking up 4 sq feet of precious garage space. You start stacking boxes, part, tools et on top of it. Finally the day arrives 2 years later when you need to use it again. Your in a hurry don’t feel like moving all the crap off it so you use your floor jack with a board on top.

I actually bought the lift table for use in our woodshop, so the engine lift is it's second use. Really digging your effervescent outlook on things though...do you do parties?

Originally Posted by '78 SC

Beautiful work. Should be a dream to use.
Some questions:

Great post with lots of things to think about...

* My handle is the same orientation as your setup, however, I've modded it to lay down so as not to foul the bumper or the rear crossbar of my 4-post.

* I've tried to place the pivot point such that there is always a downward load on the jack screw, even when I separate the transmission once it's out.

* As far as how much tilt, it goes quite a ways. How many degrees do you estimate it takes with your setup?

More later!

[icarp]

I love it , pay no attention to the people that don't do anything in real life . I have been thinking of something similar for my rolling table . You have inspired me . Maybe I'll add a servo motor as to adjust the tilt as it drops out .
Thanks
Ian

['78 SC]

Quasimoto,

RE: tilt
I use a small bottle jack with 6" of travel to elevate the back end of the platform. That is not enough tilt, so I relocate it mid-process to bear on a 4" block (see photo of underside). Consequently, I get about 10" of travel acting over a 16-21" base (moving to the block shortens the distance from the jack to the pivoting crossbar supported by jackstands).

Supports
One thing I especially like about your design is that all the support points (frame pivots and elevating screw) control motion both up and down. Mine provides upward support only, so I have to be very careful about tilting, especially laterally because there's nothing to hold the other side down. (The Pyramids have held together just fine relying only on gravity, but then they're not being tilted and jostled to align with an easily cross-threaded transmission mount. ) Your design will resist twisting, but then you're relying on the strength of the 80/20 joints.

Originally I intended to use a jackscrew similar to yours, but I can't machine parts like the trunions you made (very nice). I use ratchet straps to limit movement, but I'm going to steal some of you design elements for more positive control.

Stability
We're both using three points of support, so the key is keeping the center of gravity (CG) inside the triangle. The CG is where the 500# of drivetrain acts on the platform. I went with a wide base near the CG to control lateral movement; your design puts the CG closer to the lift screw. My concern/question is how close does that bring the CG to the edges of the support triangle? Where the drivetrain sits relative to the supports is key. I visualize this as standing on/near the seat of a tricycle versus standing on/near the handlebars; the chance of tipping sideways is less near the wheels.

This diagram is not to scale, but illustrates my point:


IMO the ideal would be a broad, nearly equilateral triangle with the CG safely centered, as in the middle diagram.


Top view of my support platform showing blocks to engage specific features on the crankcase. I remove the exhaust first, so this engages the crankcase directly



Bottom view showing crossbar supported by jackstands and sockets for the bottle jack.

[targa80]

Originally Posted by icarp

I love it , pay no attention to the people that don't do anything in real life . I have been thinking of something similar for my rolling table . You have inspired me . Maybe I'll add a servo motor as to adjust the tilt as it drops out .
Thanks
Ian

I am amazed at the ingenuity of the guys on this forum for creating devices that make working on Der Porsche that much simpler. I like the designs but I just don't have the storage space to store an item I will only use twice in 23 years.Back in 1989 I did my first engine drop and this was the equipment I used and still use today.



The jack and jack stands are essential tools in the garage and I have the space to store them. Due to a blown air box I will be dropping the motor in a few days with the same dolly and a newer jack and jack stands. The dolly was based on someone else's design that I found in 1998.

Granted when lowering or raising the motor you have to have the right balance point or it could go terribly wrong. I do have enough confidence to be able to find that perfect balance point with a little hand holding to keep the motor steady.
You need to make a double check that all cables and hoses are disconnected before lowering

[TxGerman]

Originally Posted by Quasimoto

After reading quite a few threads about the merits of using a lift table or a transmission jack for engine removal, I decided that a lift table might work best for my 4-post lift setup. I did however like the fact that some of the trans jacks allowed for tilt.

After stealing a few ideas from this thread, and then dug around in my scrap parts stash and found enough aluminum extrusion and brackets to graft something onto the table.
https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/681825-transmission-jack-engine-removal.html


A piece of 5/8 UNC threaded rod, and some trunnions I knocked up on the lathe...


Built a small frame from 1.5" aluminum extrusion, and scabbed some brackets for a pivot...


Here's a closeup of the tilt adjuster...


Hated using this nice piece of plywood, but it's scrap from a cabinet job...


Just need to add some blocks to support the heat exchangers and trans now.

This is great. I like your setup, I would like to build something similar. I used to use 80/20 a lot in a previous life. #projectgoals

[Quasimoto]

Originally Posted by '78 SC

Quasimoto,

RE: tilt
I use a small bottle jack with 6" of travel to elevate the back end of the platform. That is not enough tilt, so I relocate it mid-process to bear on a 4" block (see photo of underside). Consequently, I get about 10" of travel acting over a 16-21" base

I'm getting about 15 degrees from horizontal, do you think that will be enough? If not, I can tweak things a bit to get a little more.

Had a few minutes to finish up the top today...

[pmax]

Depends on how high the rear end is.

Probably need more ... 0.4-0.5 radian.

[gwinnch]

Quasimoto, what brand of 4 post do you have and what's the spread between the inner rails of the treads?

[capt911]

Originally Posted by gwinnch

Quasimoto, what brand of 4 post do you have and what's the spread between the inner rails of the treads?

I dropped my engine between my ramps on my Bendpak HD9-XW 4 post lift a few years ago for my 83SC