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beepbeep
arent they (zimmers) oe? |
Forgive me if this has been posted before, but here's an interesting article by Carroll Smith on caliper rigidity:
http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/monobloc3.htm Note that it's not a stoptech promo piece, but an actual article written by the esteemed Mr. Smith, presumably prior to his recent death. He comes down pretty hard on both the 930 caliper and the all-aluminum monobloc, saying that neither is as rigid as a two piece aluminum caliper with steel bolts through the bridge. Not saying that this is any justification for using an "Outlaw" caliper, but maybe the Porsche community would be well served by considering some modern alternatives to the ~30 year old 930 caliper for small diameter wheel applications. |
You could look at it both ways. Your using a brake caliper that has 30 years of proven reliability.
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Quote:
"911 Turbo 1975-77 Front Brake Disc £22.00each " The European years don't exactly match with the information in the US. I think here, they are 1978-80 that fit this car. |
Keith,
Your kit does have some good points, but you need to provide more information so that an educated consumer can make a rational decision. The major issues are seals and pistons The Outlaw 4000 series calipers have 6 advertised piston configurations ranging from 28.5/28.5 to 47.8/47.8. Which are yours? What are the pad dimensions? or at least area? The monoblocks are only used in the front w/ the widely available and cheap Carrera rear calipers/rotors Kits are sold for the rear monblocks but they are not needed and provide little advantage. dickster, I do not see the rotors that Mike is looking for i.e the '78-79 304x32 floaters. The earlier '75-77 rotors are just the small 911s Mike, That last source that I sent you didn't pan out? The rear 930 rotors are a non issue. The 309x28 Zimmerans are widely available(including here at Pelican) at a very reasonable cost. The late 2 piece 322x32s are also widely available cheaply, It's those darn 304x32s that the 930 front calipers want that are the issue. Rallyjon, That is a great article that I hadn't seen before. Yes the 930s are flexier than the later series of 2 piece Brembo, that is one of several advantages of the newer calipers. Porsche went a step further by using larger(stiffer) through bolts than the Brembo branded calipers. I don't believe that Mr. Smith was referring to the oem Brembo monoblocks which have a rep for lightness and stiffness. These calipers have proven themselves more than acceptable in all venues of racing and street use. Stoptech makes great calipers and rotors, they are the ones that should put together a 911 kit. |
Bill, Yes I did order these from Steve. Unfortunately, things did not get shipped from Brembo on time and I am cutting it close before I leave. Not his fault though. I am just looking down the road for cheaper alternatives if replacement is needed.
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bill
no they are not listed but they sell them for around US$100 ea. i dont think michael wants floating? they list the later 80's ones as well. |
We at Boxer Motorsports appreciate the benefit of forums such as this for information about new or existing products. However from time to time you find people who wish to talk about products before they know what they are designed for or before they have all the information required to make informed decision. For this reason we will attempt to again answer all the questions that have been brought up. We apologize for the lengthy post.
A little preamble to understand our Kit: We put in a great deal of research and development to optimize the piston diameter needed to maintain brake balance with a factory rear brake system. This was done to enable someone to upgrade to a full kit as their budget allows. We did not develop this kit for the street. It was designed for increased cooling efficiency on the track. However our kits like any other brake system is as streetable as the pad compound you chose. The cost of our kit is $799.95. You can look at the standard equipment this includes at our website www.boxermotorsports.com I will address the questions that were posted in the forum: jazzbass (If you run wheels bigger than 16" Fuchs, you can get slightly larger diameter rotors, too. Couldn't find any info on how much replacement rotors are....) 1. The 16” Fuch is actually a 15” center with a 16” rim on the outside. For this reason our 12.19” rotor kit will not fit a 16” or 15” Fuch. The kit will however fit most 16” aftermarket wheels and we can help determine if your wheel will fit if interested. Our 11.75” rotor kit will fit both 15 and 16” Fuchs 2. The cost of replacement rotors is $56.95ea. 11.75” $56.95 ea 12.19” ($25.00 additional for slotted rotors). We also offer the option to upgrade to heavy-duty rotors. These are non-floating Wilwood rotors. A proven name in racing. These rotors are more then likely available at your local race shop and hundreds of online shops. We specifically choose not to use exotic parts for our kits for obvious reasons. These are the same rotors that stop 3500# stock cars and run 500 laps glowing red. When was the last time you saw a 1969-89 Porsche 911 running road course with glowing rotors. The comment that they are unstable; well I will let you decide the competence of that statement. 89911 (but, what kind of pad does it take and what about rotor replacement? Since you can't use your 16" fuchs, your into big red territory. I know these are more expensive, but may be better for the long run. There is more to rotors then diameter and thickness. I just ruined one that was suppose to be better then my stock ones. For the money, they aren't a bad place to start. Just got to get that "Outlaw" logo off them.) 3. The pad used in our kit is one of the most popular pad sizes available in racing. We sale our kit with Hawk HB101-HPPlus compound but we also offer upgrades to all popular compounds. You will be hard pressed to find a local race shop or online shop that does not carry this pad style in stock. Performance Friction and all other major pad manufactures carry a pad in every imaginable compound. Installation requires only removing 2 bridge bolts, removing the old pads, spraying some brake cleaner onto the pistons before retracting them into the caliper housing, installing new pads, and reinserting the bridge bolts. 4. The Outlaw logo is the logo of the manufacturer of the calipers. Again these are readily available calipers being raced on 3500# stock cars. However due to the modifications required to adapt to the 911 the caliper housing is only available from us at this time. However the rebuild kits are again available from any local race shop or the Internet. We offer painting of any color and labeling options for an additional cost. Please contact use with questions about painting and labeling. RallyJon commented about the quality of the Outlaw brand of calipers. It is very true that Outlaw developed a bad reputation for there calipers in the circle track circuits due to a poor design of there single piston G.M. style caliper that had a problem with leaking. We have tested their 4 piston units on a 400+HP 911 for over 3 years without rebuilding the caliper with no problems. (It is recommended to rebuild racing calipers after every season and we ran ours as a test.) This is an extremely rigid caliper as is our adapter. On this note this is a true race caliper with numerous heat shielding features that are fully listed on our website. The only issue that needs to be addressed when going to race calipers is the fact that race calipers are designed to retract the pad away from the rotor after depressing the brake. Conventional calipers do the same but not to the extent of a race caliper. So a small amount of increased pedal travel is the penalty for not having your pads rubbing your rotors creating heat on straight aways. This increased pedal is very minimal and was not noticed by me but was noticed by a few other drivers so I include it here to show our commitment to customer satisfaction. Randy Webb (Those calipers look like they would flex to me. Who makes them? Note that only the rotos are id'd as Wilwood in the ad. It is a low price.) 1. Please see answer #3. And I believe the aforementioned article proves the benefit of the Outlaw design. Continued on next post |
Bill Verburg
1. no dust seals Boxer Motorsports Dust seals primarily protect the piston from getting dirty while the pad wears. When you change pads you must push the piston back into the housing thus you do not have to clean the piston to prevent damage to the seals. If most of you go and inspect your dust shields on your stock 69-89 911 you will find that most of them are damaged or completely missing. The advantage to not having dust shields is allowing air to circulate around the piston to help in cooling. The only disadvantage is having to spray off your pistons when you change your pads with brake cleaner to prevent damage to your seals. Bill Verburg 2. the rotors are not particularly stable Boxer Motorsports I assume for you to make this statement you have run numerous test or have at least had significant personal experience with these rotors. I would have a hard time believing that one of the most popular aftermarket rotors on the market could be labeled “unstable”. We have local racers replacing ATE’s and Powerslot rotors almost monthly on factory 911’s. Does that mean they are bad rotors or are they just very abused. We have run the same set of Wilwood rotors for more then 2 years on a 2700# 400+HP 911 without any warping or problems. That is just one of the cars we know of running Wilwood rotors not to mention the hundreds of circle track guys who abuse them considerably more then any of us average guys ever will who swear by them. Bill Verburg 3. you still need rear calipers Boxer Motorsports See opening statement in this post. And according to your very own post “The monoblocks are only used in the front w/ the widely available and cheap Carrera rear calipers/rotors Kits are sold for the rear monblocks but they are not needed and provide little advantage.” The right piston area in the front will not make upgrading rear calipers necessary. However the true facts are that the scenario you are referring to in the quote above create less effective braking due to the front getting a higher brake bias which causes early front wheel lock up before the backs can do there part to help. The marginal cooling increase is not offset by this fact and still uses factory rotors. Our kits are designed to transfer some additional braking to the rear. This does increase heat in the rear over monoblocks but less then factory which shows our kit works effectively using all available braking. Thus keeping braking distance very close to factory while decreasing braking distance over factory after repeated stops. Bill Verburg Bill Verburg 4. you will still need a 23mm m/c Boxer Motorsports We have tested this kit without the upgrade to a larger master cylinder and found it to work quite well. One of our test cars (’74 911s with manual brakes) begun with our front kit, factory rear system, and 23mm m/c. We actually removed the 23mm and went back to 19 mm due to the fact the pedal was too hard for our liking. The 19mm gave a much more confidant braking feel then the larger m/c with our kit. Bill Verburg 5. what is the selection of pads? Boxer Motorsports Explained in above answer Bill Verburg 6. you need spacers, what size? 930calipers can be machined down to fit w/o spacers Boxer Motorsports From our experience it is very difficult to find a machine shop that will do custom machine work on brake components due to liability issues. We actually built our own shop to develop these kits for this very problem. The caliper housing, caliper adapter, and rotor adapter are the only products on our kit not readily available from other sources. These are not wear items and very rarely get damaged. Boxer Motorsports 1. The 16in Fuchs can be used with the 11.75in X 1.25in kit. Bill Verburg Well of course they can, 11.75" is 298.5mm oem is 287.5mm, you have the advantage of 11mm in diameter and 12mm in width. w/ 16" Fuchs you can use just about any Brembo kit including the 304x32(12x1.25 American)except the Big Red on a 322x32. And even that if you wish to sacrifice a little rotor radius to the machine shop floor. The biggest fitment issue is the axial depth wrt the wheel spokes, spacers or machining of the calipers or wheels are the solutions, though each has it's own issues Boxer Motorsports This was our attempt to answer a question of what wheels our kit will and will not fit. I believe that if you will take time to notice that or standard kit has 12.19” rotors. This will not fit 16” Fuchs. So our 11.75” kit will. Boxer Motorsports 5. There is a much wider selection of pads than any Porsche caliper has ever enjoyed, you name the pad and I promise they make an HB101 pad for it. Our stock kit comes with Hawk HP+ pads but would be happy to upgrade. One more thing, you can expect the pads to cost 10 to 30% less for the same pad compound plus the pads are twice the size and thickness of the factory pad. Bill Verburg Pads is pads eh? Pad selection has never been an issue and prices range from $20 to $300 an axle set, generally you get what you pay for.. Boxer Motorsports Again we tried to answer a question. The reason the pads are less expensive is because they are so widely used it cost less to manufacture them using your favorite compound. This is very common in manufacturing and shows the availability of our type of pads. Boxer Motorsports 6. There are no spacers? required. We make radial mount adapters for each application Bill Verburg lets see, 930s bolt on, and the 993/S4 or Big Red need radial mount adapters Boxer Motorsports Our kits bolt on also. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. And I believe you stated that 930’s don’t just “bolt on” they require machining. Bill Verburg The major issues are seals and pistons The Outlaw 4000 series calipers have 6 advertised piston configurations ranging from 28.5/28.5 to 47.8/47.8. Which are yours? What are the pad dimensions? or at least area? Boxer Motorsports The seals, as explained earlier, are really not an issue to people looking to optimize cooling efficiency. There are trade offs and we believe spraying your pistons with a little brake cleaner at pad change is a good idea for everyone. Our piston diameter is 4 pistons at 35 mm ea. Our pad measurements are 120x50. The Monoblock kit so often referred to in this thread has 2 pistons at 36mm ea. and 2 pistons at 40mm ea. However keep in mind that a simple equation of pad surface are and piston surface area does not demonstrate effective brake bias. There are many variables that must be considered. Just something as simple as the rotors ability to dissipate heat will affect brake bias due to its temperature affecting effective friction. This can be proven by the fact that when you install a proportioning valve in your car you may have to change the proportioning numerous times during a run as temperature effects your bias. Many other factors also affect it such as rotor diameter etc. We contacted numerous brake manufactures including Wilwood and Brembo to find out if there was a magic formula for figuring brake bias. They all confirmed that testing is the only way to establish a good combination of equipment. We have found or kit to be much closer to a balanced kit then the monblock due to one important feature that Bill actually helps us prove. The fact that people feel like they do not need to upgrade the rears when going to a Monoblock. The reason people do not feel that they should change their rears is because the monoblocks have cured the brake fade, but in fact stopping distance has increased. This is because the front bias is now too heavy and the backs cannot do their job. Our kit is balanced to try and keep the back brakes doing there job as much as possible but without over heating them. We have witnessed this and verified it. Our kits run higher rear temperatures then a monoblock kit but not quite as hot as a factory system. This tells me we have more front bias then factory but not so much more that it adversely affects braking. We needed slightly more front bias to leave room for the rear upgrade but we did not want it so high as to require a rear kit. We are a small company who started our business to develop low cost, high quality products to the Road racing community primarily Porsche. We did not develop our kits to compete with the most expensive brake systems in the world. Just the over priced kits that utilize factory size rotors and call it a big brake kit. The brakes you have currently will lock up the front wheels. This tells me you have enough braking ability. The only way to increase braking is to increase tire contact patch in this situation. The problem is that after lap after lap of repeated hard stops you begin to get brake fade from heat build up. Our intention was to offer customers a better cooling kit not just a big caliper on a little rotor. The large curved vane rotors and billet aluminum calipers with its numerous cooling features accomplish this at a reasonable cost. Are there other kits out there that accomplish the same, sure? But as I am sure if you are interested in this thread then you have priced them. We have utilized race proven technology in our kits at a low cost. If these products are used daily on 3500# stock cars in road racing conditions then I believe that they are probably more then adequate for our considerably lighter 911’s which in most cases are considerably less powerful. Please contact us with any questions you may have and please get the facts for yourself. We did not answer every question in order as some questions were answered in other areas. However we hoped we answered a majority of people’s questions and cleared up what our kit is and is not designed for. If you have any further questions regarding our kits please feel free to contact us. http://www.boxermotorsports.com/contact.asp Thank you |
Thankyou for providing some information
w/ 35/35 and stock 38 rear, yes, you have decent bias w/ the stock 38 rears. yes, the 19.05mm m/c is adequate(barely) This product reminds me of the Bremteks that were introduced as a cheap substitute for 930 brakes 30 yrs ago. They didn't have dust seals either. That is fine for a race car where the brakes are maintained weekly, not so for a street can which rarely has its brakes looked at. Yes, I do have extensive experience w/ Coleman and Willwood rotors enough to know that I will not put them on my car again, and yes the ATEs and Powerslots have the same issues, I wont use them either. They are a budget alternative that don't quite function as well as I would expect. Yes, there are some teams in NASCAR et al. that use them, but the Brembos and Alcons are far more desirable there as well. Quote:
Quote:
I would still rather have the 930 front rotors(Brembo) and calipers which are a bolt on, no adaptors required. They also can be used w/ the 42mm Carrera rear caliper and rotor for ~ the same bias as your set up. I am sure that you will find some people that are attracted to your particular set of compromises. The biggest issue that I see is the lack of seals and the fact that 16s are needed for smaller rotors than would be used w/ 930s in 15s. Good Luck to you! |
BoxerMS - Thx for responding. Unlike a few other vendors you've responded in a very rational way. Expect a fairly high degree of "testing" on this and the RennList forums. It will be interesting to see posts from Porsche owners who try your calipers.
On one other note, PAG has not deviated from their basic caliper design (body halves meet, rather than spacer bolts) even with their latest brakes. I think tehy are all Brembo brakes. This doesn't mean that the spacer bolt type style is not rigid or otherwise effective, but suggests they saw no reason to switch. |
Hello all,
Let me clear up a misprint, the kit will SLIGHTLY and I mean slightly increase FRONT bias by 1.8%, not rear. Do to limitations of most brake manufacturers there are limits to the range of piston sizes availiable, I can only assume this is the reason that the front Mono block kits are oversized. Here is a little math for you on factory and modified brake biases. Factory SC front brake bias is 61% Factory Carrara front brake bias is 56%, of course this is misleading because at maximum braking this set up would be unstable and hard to control. The factory used, as I am sure you know, a 33 Bar brake proportioning valve to limit rear braking at maximum effort. With our kits the SC will have front bias of 62.8% Slightly more but not a notable differance. With a Carrara the results will be much the same as stock. The mono block kit on the SC will produce a 67% front bias that will more than likely induce premature lockup, thus increasing braking distances. If you have a Carrara with the factory proportioning valve installed the results will be much the same. Idealy, if you are to use the mono block kit on an SC than you will want to upgrade the rear to 42mm calipers, this will give a front bias of 62%. If you own a Carrara the factory porportioning valve needs to be removed. A car with a little too much front bias stops poorly, a car with too much rear bias is unsafe. A question was raised about floating rotors earlier in the post. Our kit uses a non-floating rotor design. We manufacture our own rotor and caliper mounting hardware. Floating rotors are great on the track but on the street they are quite noisy. In spite of the comment otherwise the Wilwood rotor is a very capable rotor. I have used many differant rotors including 250.00 apiece Brembo rotors on my race car. Considering the differance in cost 250 versus 60.00 I certainly didn't see the value of the Brembos. Also understand that there are four differant Wilwood rotors, the ultra lights that are just that, but for street use they are worthy. We mostly use a 48 curved vane heavy duty rotor that we are currently using on two different track cars and have not experienced a problem with worping. We sell our kits as a track capable brake kit, but yes they are also used on street cars. I have a set that have been on the car for over three year and over 20k miles with out problems. As far as dust seals go, we used to do alot of service work. With time the factory dust seals are usually compromised. Unfortunatly the factory pistons are typically steel or chrome plated steel and they rust, thus destroying the bores and seals. With the stainless pistons this problem is eliminated. Thank you for your time and interest, Keith Boxer Motorsports |
Hi Randy,
Thanks for you response. The reason that Wilwood, Outlaw, etc use the bolt and spacer set up is so that they can fit the caliper to several differant rotor thicknesses. Thanks, Keith Boxer Motorsports |
I learned of Boxer several months ago and have spoken with Keith on the phone about this kit. As he has demonstrated here, he has given much thought to how to package their big brake offerings.
I'm not referring to anyone who has posted on this thread, so I hope no one here thinks I'm talking about them. However, I think there is a knee jerk reaction against anything that doesn't carry a Porsche or Brembo label. Bottom line, if I needed to upgrade my brakes, I would not care if they had Mickey and Minnie Mouse on the label as long as they were well designed and built and achieved my performance objectives. Seeing as brakes have evolved way beyond iron rotors and alluminum calipers with as many pistons as you want, I think there are some general principles regarding this aged technology of which we discuss that are well within the public domain. Now lets see who can produce to a widely accepted specification at the lowest cost. That means affordable to those of us can't afford to pay for huge marketing budgets at Brembo, Alcon, etc. I applaud Keith and Boxer for bringing to the market one of the few aftermarket items for 911's where the bariers to entry are still somewhat low and where the need is significant. Anyone who has destroyed a set of pads and rotors and boiled their brake fluid at a track like Carolina Motorsports Park can attest to that. |
If any one is still looking for a strong kit to fit under 16's
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My '84 has Wilwood calipers on the front - similar to those Boxer uses - cheap, no seals, the HB101 pads, 35mm(1.375") bores,etc. They have been on the car for 8-9 years and and about 60,000 KM, about 1/4 of that on the track, the balance as a three season daily driver.
The only issues I have encountered is occasional replacement of the main piston seals (once in the last 20,000 km, as a precautionary measure). Admittedly the pads get changed four or five times a year, switching from street to track pads, but nothing that I have seen makes me concerned about the lack of seals. Especially when the rears just needed rebuilding because the dust seals were shot, and the pistons got corroded and cut the main seals. The rebuild cost much more than brand new front calipers. I'll take stainless pistons/no seals over steel pistons/seals any day for my situation. As far as flex speculations, nothing in the feel would lead to that conclusion. It would be interesting to measure the caliper flex of a few of the commonly discussed rotors to see what is actually happening - fairly simple to do, and I expect that the writings of Carroll Smith would be verified. On the rotor front, while I can't argue with the experience of others, I have used Coleman rotors on my Audi S6 for three years, with no complaints. They are economical, especially considering they are made to my drawings, and they have provided excellent service in a much more taxing application than a lot of 911's (more power once tweaked and a LOT more weight). The car would completely use up a set of pads in a track weekend, and would use up a set of rotors in two weekend until I got the size/cinfiguration sorted out. FWIW. |
ks911, seems like you went through this about a year ago also i know i posted my findings so this must be another post,
anyway, I race cars and will say the out law brakes are pretty good, in the last few years all the major racing manufacturers have been finding better ways to stop the calipers from binding do to not perfectly installed mounting brakets, bent brakets on old cars that owners dont know about, etc, most of us think that the rotor is floating actualy its pinched between the hub and the wheel, even though it slides off when the tire is removed, I cant tell you how many times i have worked on someones street/track car that had bad brakes only to find them bound up, bent mounting bolts etc, as far as pads i paid 50 bucks for hawk race pads and 56 for stock porsche pads, and believe me the hawk pads are 50 times better then most stock pads, just make sure you get pads that dont have to have heat if your gonna street the car, the seals, who cares if your brakes are more then 5 years old the ozone has probably damaged them, think about this, your gonna do a brake job you get four new o rings for each caliper, you take the caliper off and clean it(if you dontwhy are you changing brakes) pop four new o rings in, lets go one step further what the heck with it you pop four new piston and rings in, takes you 5 minutes a caliper, at a cost that is unbelievable, you probably can get the o rings at the parts store, I wonder the cost of brembo, hummm back to the seals we all keep our P cars wheels clean and most of us clean the calipers because we dont want anyone looking through our wheels going hummm dirty dirty dirty, so you already keep the calipers clean, I have a set of calipers like the outlaws that have never seen new o rings and I bought them new in 1997, anyway do to the seals almost always being junk but you could if you couldnt live with your self take the old style rubber seals and slip on the out side of the caliper between the caliper and pad, I think the issue is this, why spend 3600 on brakes for a car that is worth 7-10k, lets go to the heat fading problem, if this is the only reason your looking to up grade, there are other ways to stop it, 1st, install a brake resurculating kit, this will lower you brake fluid temperature and help keep the calipers cooler, 2nd why are you running dot3 enough said 3rd install air ducts for the calipers, what most people dont know is that the air coming around the side of the car acts kinda like a vacuum pulling air threw the center of the wheel which also helps to cool the brakes, there are a ton of guys racing in stock classes that must run itty bitty little tiny brakes, how do they go so fast, brake resurculaters really good brake fluid, and air ducts regardless, why do you have your foot on the pedal so much??? drag creates heat, etc, most people that drive with two feet always keep some pressure on the brakes we are back to heat and drag, I have stock brakes on my sc with a 3.6 they seem to do the job, next year i may get around to brakes and the hawks are not out of the question but i have 18s and will probably go with 6 piston front 4 rear with an in car brake bias adjuster and those bid ask brakes will look really coool, to bad ill probably never use them to thier fullest, nascar, indy car, imsa, they all run outlaw type brakes, they all have the same bolt hole mount spacing, so you could enterchange with another company if you had to, why do i know this, racing spindle manufactueres all use the same spacing, so in theory there probably is a brembo with the same spacing as the outlaw, Kevinhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101442576.jpg |
ks 911:
I found using a Wilwood Forged Superlite with (4) 35 mm bores on a Carrera rotor works very nicely. The seal issue is ridiculous, Bill is harping on this a bit too much. Stating that a seal less caliper is specifically for a race car, not a daily driver, is a moot point. The majority of people on this site spend plenty of time under their car changing brake compounds, so checking seal conditon goes along with the routine brake maintainence; no big deal. Big Reds don't have the double bridge bolt design that the Wilwood has; according to the Smith article, by design, the Wilwood should be a considerably stiffer caliper than the Big Red. The HB 101 size has 3 times the pad selection than the Big Red and can be order in 2 different thickness. Here's a pic of a Forged Superlite on a 3.2 rotor, ideally I should have a bit more heat sink. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101451571.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101451628.jpg regards, J.P. |
just alittle more info on the Wilwood side of things
Here is a pic of the newer forged superlight, The nice thing about the super light is when you buy them you can choose from 28.4mm to 44.5mm pistons. I am a wilwood dealer but make brake kits with the brembo calipers also. The wilwoods can be alittle more vocal(make more noise) then the bembo calipers in a direct comparison.... thats all I have
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101452573.jpg |
Wilwood calipers can be spec'd with insulated pistons that reduce temp. transfer substaintially (not found on the street Big Red type)
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101452677.gif They also offer a nice 6 piston brute: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101452734.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101453125.jpg This monster measures 11.75" end to end. Enough grand standing; back to my cave. J.P. |
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