Don't forget the custom hard lines, you'll need one side SAE inverted flare and metric 10X1 globe flare at the other.
These guys made mine in stainless; just send them a wire template/model and they'll duplicate it.
http://www.classictube.com
regards,
J.P.

Since I have a 1984 911, can I install the Wilwood calipers first then down the road upgrade to larger Wilwood rotors?

There are some good posts and some irrelevant posts here.

To save time(hopefully)

The vast majority of any brake improvement comes from the rotor not the caliper. The reason for most brake compaints is rotor temperatures that get out of control causing a cascading sequence of subsequent issues. You need to keep rotor temps under control via one or both of the following cooling or more massive rotors.

Unless bigger wheels and tires are needed additional brake torque, whether from additional clamping force or from larger diameter rotors is a waste.


There is a continuum of needs and solutions ranging from stock up to the giant pieplates used on some cars. what may be good for one is not necessarily good for another.

You are a fool, if you think that seals are not needed for street use. Brake cylinders are just like engine cylinders, they need to be kept clean to eliminate scoring, wear and subsequent leaks. For a race car seals are actually bad, but a race car will have the brakes rebuilt on a weekly basis.

Regarding the seal issue, there was a differentiation made between a race caliper and street unit and explained based on application, that having piston seals becomes an irrelavant issue. It's interesting to see how many Porsche Brembo calipers have crrosion in the piston area compared to the stainless pistons of the units which do not have seals. It's a misinformed idividual who thinks that a caliper w/o seals needs to be rebuilt frequently.
Rotor mass is a key compnonet in heat dissapation, but not the only one. Caliper design, in it's ability to dissapate heat must also be considered. Compared to the Big Red units, many contemporary units are an improvement in this area. Piston insulation, and heat deflection plates are two features that come to mind; both which the Big Reds, or any Porsche Brembo street unit do not have. So to discredit a non Porsche Brembo unit solely on a lack of seals is a very narrow minded view.
Regards,
J.P.

yes after the seals have failed they will corrode, but corrosion is not the only issue, physical abrasion from any dirt is an issue w/ any cyl.

The caliper is major contributor to heat dissipation only to the extent that the rotor temps have become too high. Yes, they do need to handle some heat but only a small % of the total thermal burden.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101948801.gif

There are two important factors in the rotors ability to handle heat one is the mass the other is the internal structure. 2 externally identical 304x32mm 930 rotors can have very different internal structure, which of theses do you suppose will run cooler?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101948942.jpg

The name of the game w/ brakes is to keep the temps down by whatever means you can.

Using big calipers on small rotors only makes the rotor run hotter and fail sooner That is why the Boxster brake used on Carrera rotors is not a brake upgrade.

Who makes the rotor on the right Bill?

The rotor on the left looks like a Coleman economy unit. Wilwood markets what would be considered accetable, w/o the Brembo/Alcon price.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101957837.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1101957862.jpg
This thread seems to have turned into a battle between those who feel Brembo Porsche is the only way to go, and those who feel there are more economical solutions in obtaining the same result: better braking/less fade.
Regards,
J.P.

That looks suspiciously like an Alcon rotor....(the one on the right)

I just pulled something like that off a 2003 GT3RS

Brembo

No, it's about people recommending parts inappropriate for the application. I have nothing against Willwood or even Coleman. Each may be appropriate for certain cars in certain conditions. Several friend run those rotors and or calipers on their GT cars. They are cheaper, as is most any U.S. manufactured product these days.

Do I feel Brembo and Alcon and AP and DBA are better? Yes, are they worth more? That's your personal decision. Should you run unsealed calipers on the street w/ the accompanying neglect that usualy acconmpanies that sort of use? no, but then for the street you don't need any of these. Should big calipers be put on small rotors? No, but again for the street it won't make a difference. Do big calipers stop the car quicker? No, not without other changes. Do seals help the caliper service life? Absolutely, ss and Ti pistons are also nice, as are ceramic pucks, but for the street seals are needed.

One note: The rotor does two things - It transfers heat to the environment, mainly by convection, but partly by radiation. This will vary with how hot the rotor is, and will also operate at steady state (when the heat generated is about the same as the heat leaving the rotor, and hence the temperatures will be relatively static). This state is not achieved too often in street or even race use.
Second, the rotor provides so-called "thermal mass" -- it takes a while and some heat will be 'used up' for the heat generated to heat up the entire rotor (not just the friction sites where the pad touches the rotor surfaces). This is a transient phenomenon (and much more difficult to model or understand).

Both of these effects will operate simultaneously, and heat "dissapation" properly only refers to heat transfer away from the rotor, not to the "thermal mass" phenomenon -- even tho that will dominate over the other.

Bill: V.:
Agreed.
J.P.

question for Bill V or anyone else regarding the Brembo rotors on the right:
the interior vanes of the rotor are directional, but which direction should they be spinning? *Into* the direction of travel like an excavator scooping dirt/air? or *with* the direction of travel?

Dave, the key is to look at the vanes inside the rotor and not the holes. The holes can be misleading.

The vanes are to rotate in a direction that have the leading edge of the vane be below, and ahead of the trailing edge. Like shown here:

http://www.stoptech.com/products/img/0605AeroRotorDataSheet.pdf

Notice how the technical drawing has the rotor pictured such that the direction of rotation is CCW. But the cross drilled holes would lead you to believe the rotation should be clockwise, based on how I described the vane orientation above. So, the holes don't always indicate the arrangement of the vanes.

Check out this topic for an example of the 930 rotor direction of rotation. You'll see that the 930 rotors have holes that actually do evolve the same as the vanes.

930 rotor direction of rotation

To answer your question directly, the sweet looking Brembo rotor you pictured rotates "with"

a nice pic of the internal vanedesign on the PCCB rotors (ceramic) is on a current thread - 944T I think is the title of it.

I forget which version I posted tho - they redesigned them just recently.

Kevin, thanks, that's exactly what I needed to know... the 930 thread is perfect, as is the diagram.

Interesting that some rotors have x-drilled holes opposite of vane direction. Never knew that.

Easy way to think about it, those vanes are designed to throw heat away from the hub, not to force cold air in.

Straight vanes doesn't matter, there is no corrrect side. Curved vanes are designed to pump air from the center out when moving forward.

Everyone here summed it up nicely

May I respectfully add that the additional unsprung weight that comes with the use of bigger rotors and calipers is actually a considerable detriment? Even though I don't yet have a lot of Porsche experience, I've had enough experience with race cars and bikes to know this. I couldn't agree more with your comment, Bill, that brake cooling is the place to start making improvements, as is vehicle weight reduction so that less braking power is required.

considerable? not!

there is a penalty but the advantages of bigger rotors and wheels and tires almost always outweighs the penalties, but each situation is unique and shouuld be considered on it's own merits.

Jeremy, what size rotors are you running on your car?