E or S. Which is the better driver?

[reed930]

We all know that the S is the winner for bragging rights. But in everyday driving, not track use, which model would be the best driver? I have always heard nice things about the E, but it is always overshadowed by the S.

Is the S really that much better or is it the mystique? I have been looking for an early car and have driven a few. The S models are easily twice the price of the Es. I honestly can't say that behind the wheel I noticed that much difference between the two models.

Have I just driven some doggy S models or are the two that close? I don't mind spending the money if the car is that much better, but I'm not looking at any potential purchase as an investment and don't want to spend more money just for the grill badge.

[speeder]

Definitely look for the best 911E that you can find. The "S" is the highest performance model and most coveted by collectors, but all early 911s will hold their value if in good shape.

You may have already heard this, but the power advantage of the "S" model occurs at the very top of the power range, (upper rev limit), which is what you need to pass that other fast car on the straightaway at the track, but for street driving you do not get to go 10/10ths unless you are nuts. Sure, you can wind your car out and feel its power, but like you said it's mostly bragging rights and status/collector value. Would I like to own a mint early 911S? You bet your bippy. But I'd be just as happy w/ a great 911E.

The 911E might even be rarer than the "S", but I'm not sure. In terms of performance and price, the 911E was very close to the "S", not the 911T. Also, particularly w/ the 2.4 cars, ('72-'73 models), the "E" was quicker than the "S" from 0-60 because of more favorable torque characteristic, ie. more usable power down low where you live on the street. A good 2.4 911E was, (and still is), a real bullet from 0-60. Awesome cars.

[Milu]

I have minimal experience with both but I'm sure you'd be happy with either if you find a good one.
("How happy I could be with either were t'other dear charmer away")

If it had to be a choice I would base it on personal preferences and type of usage. If you like driving with lots of revs go for an S, if you prefer to use the torque of the engine go for the E.

[Evans, Marv]

Chris:
I've never driven an S, but I had a '72 911E and am going to put a 2.7L w/ Webers & E cams into a '69E I bought. I thoroughly enjoyed driving the '72E. It had power from the start to pretty much redline. Great for everyday driving. They made fewer Es than Ss by a few hundred and lots of the Es had S options on them (brakes, trim, etc.). I read in Road & Track (I think) that in E had a faster quarter mile than the S, but after that the S pulled away, because of the cams coming on eventually.
IMO the E is the best buy for the money for a car you want to drive regularly.

[Zeke]

My S is not in perfect tune yet, but I can tell already that it is a hot rod. Likes the RPM's. It probably isn't as tractable as a T, but it must share many characteristics with the E. Remember, it has the cams that everyone likes for performance. At higher lift, you will see some tendencies of the engine to be a little tougher to tune for a perfect idle and real smooth around town driving.

The S is like the '67 VW convertable. That car had many stand alone parts that would not fit on a '66 or '68 convertable. As such, those are some of the rarest and hardest VW parts ot locate in the entire spectum. Thus, it becomes a coveted car if complete. And pricey. This is the case with the S. The MFI is different than the E or T and there are other items as well. That's another thing that might influence your final choice.

[Todd Simpson]

Getting a good example is more important than E vs. S. It's like the "SC vs. Carrera" debate. I'd pass on a ratty S for a nice E.

I replaced my T motor with an S motor and it idles smoother, pulls better from low RPM and is much easier to drive, simply because it's in much nicer shape than the old T.

[svandamme]

never driven an E or T , but i do like my S a lot
even in normal hightway traffic

imagine sunny sunday drive, the locals got out there flashy mercedez convertible and are poking away on the most left lane doing around 70 miles an hour ( cant do more or it would ruin the hairdo on the misses)

enter my beast, cruising along
i see the Merc
out goes a curse, have to slow down, back to 4th
revs go up, the beast howls
the Merc has seen me
hastly makes his retreat to the middle lane
down another gear , down with the right foot
and i can see the sad look on ther merc's face while the S does what it likes to do howling in the high revvs ...

yep, it's fun

dunno if the E has the same sound when it revvs up, mine really starts to sound the bussiness around 4500 - 5000 rpm and it's a real treat when she does. double bonus when going through a long tunnel with the targa top off...

[gumba]

From the Red Book, 1972 E- 1, 124, S- 1,750, 1973 E-1,366, S-1,430. These are coupes. Targa's 1972 E-861, S-989. 1973 E-1,055, S-925.
I've owned a '73 T targa. Now own '73 E targa (w/3.2), '73 S coupe.
If your indifferent to the E or S, I would look for an E with the S option pagkage.

'73 E targa (3.2)
'73 S coupe (stock)
'68 v.w. crewcab w/2.4 E & Webers.

[larry47us]

Reed:

I feel a bit funny giving you a response, since it is based on what most people have told me while I was looking for my car. My car is currently being restored and is going to be delivered in March. The gist of what was told to me is that it depends on what you are going to do with the car. Are whether you are going to drive the car, run it on the track or collect it.

I started looking for an "S" and the prices I found for a nice one were up in the mid to upper 20's. But that was outside my budget. I wanted a car in really nice shape, no rust, solid mechanicals, that we could have fun with on weekends and evenings in the "non-snowy" time of the year. And, wasn't going to cost me an arm and a leg to maintain.

Everyone recommended an "E" to me. From people that had them (and had "S's" too) to others who were just giving me advice from what they had heard.

The E has more low end torque, it is faster out of the box, it will cost you less to buy, it is a better around town driver. They are likely the best value in an early car right now. Mine, fully redone, with a bare metal paint job, is going to cost me about $18K when all is said and done. Certainly couldn't have found an S for that!!

Good luck.

larry

[RoninLB]

Courtesy of Analog Mike

[power]

If your looking for affordability and around town drive-ability consider a "T". If your looking for performance chose an "S". If your looking for a compromise chose an "E". I think the torque graph Ron posted kind of explains it perfectly. Gee that RS curve is pretty! HMMMMM.

[Early_S_Man]

Chris,

The E models are close enough to be the best value, easily! I have driven most of the '69 thru '73 models, and it is likely that some, if not most of the 'S' models encountered on the used car market ... aren't in the best of tune, since most sellers aren't inclined to put a $500 tuneup into a car just before selling! My strong recommendation is to drive examples of both models and make up your own mind! It all really boils down to whether you like high-rpm responsiveness ... or flexibility around town. The 'E' models are a very good compromise, but for some ... only an early 'S' will do!

As Ron's chart shows, the only range where the 2.4E has an advantage is from 2500 rpm thru 4200 rpm, but the advantage around town is very slight, and dropping down a gear in an 'S' cuts in the afterburner in a heartbeat! The advantage of the 'S' is in highway driving, though the sound and feel of 'E' models is essentially the same, the response, sound, and fierceness of an 'S' engine from 4500 rpm to 7300 rpm sells the model for those who love the MFI engine howl at speed! The apparent advantage of the 2.7 CIS engines was lost after the '74 models ... when the 8:31 r&p was adopted! The PO of my car bought a '75 USA Carrera and was severely disappointed!

Ron,

That must be a chart printed with an early version of Microsoft Works for DOS ... I wrote a couple of printer drivers for it back in the days of DOS 4.0! Hard to forget that 'look!' Much more flexible formatting of the graphs than Lotus back then, and well worth the effort to get my IBM Color printer working correctly!

Here is an enhanced version of your chart with a bit more contrast:

[FA-18C]

I've owned a 67 and 72S, and currently have a 70E with MFI. Though my 72 had webers, I think I still prefer my 70E over both early S cars for daily drivability. Having said that, I'd give my left pinky to still have the two S beasts, just for the mystique. I occasionally get wrapped up in the mystique part of the S - and find myself lusting. But sometime next year after some mild metal work, a repaint to the original Irish green, houndstooth inserts on the seats and installation of the dash sitting in the garage I am going to be DONE - and loving it. Someone will eventually say it, but find the best early car you can afford in a color you can live with and enjoy. The engine will eventually need to be rebuilt and that is your opportunity to expand performance.

[reed930]

Thanks for all the great replies. This confirms my seat-of-the-pants impression. That is that there is a huge difference between the Ts and Es and a much smaller difference between the Es and Ss. With the prices of Es so close to Ts I think I concentrate my search on an E.

Of course, if I come accross a mint, original owner S I guess I'll have to give that car a look too.

[304065]

Above 6300 rpm or so the E just makes noise, not power. The low-end grunt is excellent coming out of the corners and you actually have to watch out for power oversteer in the slow ones.

That's on the track. For the street I'd take the E without question. . . hmm. . .gives me an idea. . . .

[larry47us]

Warren, Ron:

Thanks for the post of the torque curve on the cars. I found it very interesting. Now teach me a bit. How does the torque curve relate to the HP curve, and which is more important in choosing the shift point when you are driving?

I know that this is also going to depend on the RPM drop when you go to the next gear. My 73E, of course, has the stock 915 tranny. So my guess is that I should be shifting at about 5.5K?

Have no idea where redline is on this car (not arriving till March) but does the HP power curve match the Torque curve?

thanks

larry

[svandamme]

have a look at this

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html

[larry47us]

Any given car, in any given gear, will accelerate at a rate that *exactly* matches its torque curve . . . Torque is the only thing that a driver feels, and horsepower is just sort of an esoteric measurement in that context.

svandamme:

In an nutshell, thanks for the article. Even though it was written by a Corvette enthusiast, the information is apropos and understandable. Now, if I can just get that waterwheel under my lid, I'll be OK.

Edit: The issue is that horsepower is the thing that gives you the torque that makes the car go. The more horsies, the more torque on a longer range of RPM's the greater the power band, the fewer shifts, the faster the "s-car-go".

thanks

larry

[dotorg]

Originally posted by svandamme
double bonus when going through a long tunnel with the targa top off...

I hope I'm not the only one who will roll down his windows and downshift when going through a long tunnel.

[skinnerd]

I doubt if most people would notice the difference between a well tuned E and a well tuned S. The difference in torque is pretty miniscule (see torque charts in the previous posts). The higher hp on the upper end might be more noticable with the S. That said, a good S will cost you an arm and a leg. A good E, an arm and only half a leg. I'd just find the best, most affordable E or S you could find, and enjoy the ride. Both would be a blast around town and on the track.

I did notice a huge difference when I rebuilt my 2.4 E into a 2.7MFI... but the car also weighed about 200 lbs less as well.

Whatever you get, make sure it still has the MFI!