CIS to EFI kit - Page 12

ohecht · 03-20-2004, 07:38 PM

It would seem that, if modifications to the kit are possible, then it would fit all possible configurations and combinations of heat, AC, none of the above, etc.

Olivier

Alan Cottrill · Alan Cottrill's Garage

couldn't you build a passenger side fuel rail where the cross over tube exits the fuel rail from between the #4 and #5 injector then plug the hole at the end of the rail? would that fix the ac pump interference?

tbitz · 03-20-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alan Cottrill
couldn't you build a passenger side fuel rail where the cross over tube exits the fuel rail from between the #4 and #5 injector then plug the hole at the end of the rail? would that fix the ac pump interference?

I'm looking into this as a possible solution for the A/C problem. I need to check and see if off the shelf porting tools can make the cut and not go through the top end of the rail. I'll have to get a rail made to try out. This is going to take some time. There maybe a workaround for the A/C. Stay tuned....

I don't think there is any solution to backdating the heating though. Photos seem to indicate the left plastic duct will hit the fuel rail without any fuel fittings attached.

Elombard · 03-21-2004, 04:30 AM

Ohect you should try a car with back dated heat. I have tons of heat w/ out the fan and its easier to work on to boot. I have SSIs I have heard this makes a difference over stock exchangers.

Hey how about a break down on the kit pricing if we provide some of the easier to source used stuff our self. i.e. injectors. If I could get the price down to $6-$700 bucks I would be much more likely to buy.

ohecht · 03-21-2004, 04:46 AM

I have tried "worse than" backdated heat when I just removed the motor from the airflow after it stopped working. It was certainly tolerable here in VA, but I am sure there are many people who need the full force of the heat at idle. My main motivation for backdating was, as you said, to clean up the engine compartment, which is a huge feature of the EFI kit for me, too. I only changed directions and went back to the blower after I found the $30 Grainger motor fix for the stock heat.

Sourcing the parts for the backdate was something I just didn't have the time for, and I have to think Tony could manufacture the block-off pieces himself, given the skill evident in the base kit. Having a kit option for those that do want/need to back date without a separate sourcing effort might make sales a lot easier. I know, as a consumer, I am frustrated when buying one thing I relaly want also leads to other mandatory purchases, expenses, and time finding parts.

Regarding a heat workaround, I have often thought there must be a more flexible solution to the stock pastic flexible duct that I think is causing the problem. It has a unique interface with the blower housing itself, but the other end is just a large diameter plastic duct. I would think a simple sleeve with a more flexible hose material on the end near the distributor might allow people to keep their heat and install the kit. Something where you cut the stock hose near the blower motor, and then attach something more flexible ou can route around the EFI.

Olivier

FenderGuy · 03-24-2004, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doug Steinel
IMHO, a 911 should not have AC... and the backdated system is fine even when it is 20 degrees. I have already backdated my '82 3.0L and now I will have an excuse to rip that AC out and lose 50lbs of useless steel.I drove it all winter with a backdated system . People who want to replace the CIS with EFI are after performance which means they should be willing to lose the AC and the blower motor.

A 911 shouldnt have power windows, powerbrakes, you know all those creature comforts but they do and Stuttgart sent that way because owners wanted them that way. This kit was looking more interesting in my SC hunt, regardless if the AC works or not, I would like to see this kit work with the AC, Some of us dont live in cool climates.

tbitz · 03-24-2004, 09:05 AM

I am having the machine shop put a port for the fuel fitting under the fuel rail between two of the injector pockets. The unused end will be capped off with a low profile plug. This way folks will have the option to put the fuel fitting on the end of the rail or underneath.

Once they come in I'll post a picture.

So it looks like the kit will work A/C after all. One of my beta testers (Mac) will be trying this out with his setup.

No way around backdating the heating though.

DARKNES · 03-24-2004, 12:22 PM

FWIW, I think Richard Fong's (rfng) SC turbo kit will also require backdating the heater system. So anyone wanting to do both the EFI and turbo might be wise to go ahead and do it.

It works fine, and eliminates the blower and hoses. Looks nicer, and I've heard rumors from some of the Old Timer mechanics around here that the blower motors were a potential source for engine fires. Admittedly, I am in Phoenix, where heat does not matter so much, but it does get down to freezing at some times in the winter, and the heat works fine for me. (yes, it gets cold at night in the desert). The AC system versus the Phoenix summer heat was a lost cause. It's out pending some Miracle System to replace it. I'm not holding my breath.

Mine's backdated, and the AC's out. I showed a pic of Tony's system to some of my buddies and they're pretty excited about it. Combine it with crankfire ignition and rfng's kit, and it'll be truly revolutionary! Viva la SC! LOL!

-TS

hugo · hugo's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by banjomike
Damn that's a lots sexier looking engine compartment than your typical CIS (or DME 3.2 or 3.6)!! I'm very interested, but I can't believe I'd have time to do it to soon. Do you think the final release version will be more or less $$

me too...3.2 liter with CIS ..

tbitz · 03-26-2004, 03:35 PM

Just a quick note. In case you missed it, I started a thread for my turbo conversion.

Click here

It's going to be a real undercover bad boy

tbitz · 03-29-2004, 11:53 AM

All the snow has melted and the weather was real nice, so I took the car for a ride. hurray!!!

I am always amazed at how much power my 911SC has after driving a Saturn wagon for 6 months.

Anyhow I am going to fine tune the VE table since I have made changes to the system since last year. I will use my wide-band O2 sensor to dial in a 13.5:1 air/fuel mixture at WOT. Once this is done, I'll make the configuration available for others to download.

I am starting another batch of CIS to EFI kits. I have gone through my costs and have figured price for the kit. There are alot of overhead expenses in running a business I must account for.

So, the introductory price for the next batch of kits will be $1599US.

This is almost half the price of a PMO carburetion conversion kit ($3000US) and if you dare to compare to Electromotive conversion with rails, injectors, intakes, your approaching the $10,000.

If your interested, email me offline.

Tim Walsh · Tim Walsh's Garage

tony,
Have you thought about making a kit for the MFI crowd? I think the only difference between the two would be some extra length of hose between the left and right bank and a different mounting for the rails themselves.. $1600 for EFI vs. $1000 for a new pump can be pretty tempting. Granted though your target market is much smaller though.

tbitz · 03-29-2004, 12:21 PM

Only CIS to EFI for now. This may change in the future.

1fastredsc · 03-29-2004, 08:06 PM

13.5:1 at WOT is a little lean no? I thought that a reasonable target at WOT was like 13:1, 12:1 being best for peak torque?

tsuter · 03-30-2004, 04:46 AM

Depending on where you fall in the RPM and MAP table, I'll program ratios below 12 as well. Whereas at idle and cruise you can be up near 14. Of course that table is just one of the inputs. You still need a sniffer on the dyno to confirm the outputs. Oh this program is for one one my other vechicles - but programmable MAP based EFI is all the same until you use a MAF sensor.

911sc79 · 03-30-2004, 06:49 AM

I do not have much experience with PORSCHE modifications and would like to better understand what the advantages of EFI are:

More power from stock, unmodified SC?

Better throttle resonse?

Permits to use higher performance S type camshafts?

Could someone explain what backdating of heating means?

Any other advantage to EFI?

KNS · 03-30-2004, 07:15 AM

$1599.00 still seems reasonable. Fair is fair, you can't price yourself into the poor-house if this is going to be your sole source of income.

banjomike · banjomike's Garage

911sc79 wrote:

Quote:

would like to better understand what the advantages of EFI are

One would hope it would be more efficient, cleaner running, somewhat more powerful with better throttle response but none of this has been measured yet. It should absolutely allow the use of more radical cams than CIS would allow. There is an associated thread that discusses Tony's next stage of development which is a turbo.

Backdating the heating involves removing all the heater plumbing that is associated with the heater fan in the engine compartment and configuring the system like an earlier 911 where the heater is driven by the main cooling fan. Do a search on 'heater backdating' you'll see what it is about.

1fastredsc · 03-30-2004, 07:48 PM

For the most part, it basically cuts the shackles that are chaining you to conventional modifications that other years of non-cis 911's can do and we can't. There's power, whether radical cammed or force induced, efi means it's now become almost limitless. Efficiency, if your in the middle of a rebuild, then you can change the pistons to more efficient shapes then the ones in there now. The pistons in the cis car now are designed to swirl the mixture of air and fuel as it enters, not so much for extracting the most amount of force from the combustion. Then there is also ease of maintenence and tuning, because let's face it, cis is overly complicated with some expensive parts to replace if it breaks.
Is that good enough for you

A Quiet Boom · A Quiet Boom's Garage

EFI, well at least aftermarket EFI, takes away the "black magic" tuning that us old carb and MFI guys are used to. Basically by using feedback from an O2 sensor you can completely map the engines fuel mixture for all loads, rpms and throttle angle. This makes EFI much more precise than older methods of fuel management and allows total power (the area under the dyno curve) to increase. It also allows more drivable power, for example the carbs on my car while producing excellent power and throttle response at wider throttle angles tend to produce a "flat spot" around 2500-3500 rpm and light throttle, I can tune this out but at the expense of peak power or smooth idle. With EFI I wouldn't need to make that choice. Of course other things like forced induction and larger cams as mentioned earlier are much less complex to setup with EFI. A practical example of this was the Mustang craze of the late '80s and early '90s, Fords EFI allowed all sorts of power adders to become simple bolt ons rather than complex projects, it didn't take long for owners of other EFI cars to start demanding the same bolt ons and as you can see from the import world guys are making tremendous power from relatively few cubic inches while still mainitaining drivabiltiy and in some cases emissions that would be impossible or at least prohibitively difficult with carbs, CIS or MFI. I've been following this thread very closely and while I'm certainly capable of machining and installing my own setup I am very attracted to tbitz's kit from a time savings standpoint. I'm even somewhat inspired to construct my own custom intake to replace the CIS intake and if it works out perhaps offer it for sale as a compliment to this kit. Of course with Spring here that project will have to wait until next Winter since I cannot stand to be without the P-car during the summer.