Well Sorted 964 versus SC??

[Jcon]

Not trying to start trouble here, but I have to seriously consider a 964.

I have a very well sorted 81 SC - 62000 Miles.

By well sorted I mean everything that gets worn has been replaced or rebuilt

Tranny
Shocks
Bushings
Brakes
SSIs
Bearings
Tie Rods
Plug Wires
New 7&9" Fuchs
Guages rewired professionally ( ouch)
Etc Etc

As I sit here again looking at the project budget I continue to wonder if I should bite the bullet and just buy a newer car.

I use the car for 80% street and 5 or so DEs a year.

To finish the project list of
Torsion Bars
3.6
Sway Bars
Seats
Oil Coolers

On and on

Will run in the range of $15 - 17,000. When I'm done do I have a car as good as a solid late model 964. I'm looking at this from a purely performance position ( not looks or feel). The one obvious upside are the airbags and rear seat belts. Not for the track, but daily commutes. I figure my car plus $10K gets me into the 964.

I would prefer a 993, but truly well sorted examples are not within my price range.

Plan B

Finish the suspension and safety equiptment ( seats, DAS roll bar) - and live with the 3.0 power a few more years. It's not like I'm able to drive the wheels off this thing yet.

I'm looking to get some input from those who have been there SPENT that. Sorry for the rambling, but I'm am down to ordering parts or trading the car in the next couple weeks to be ready for this years track weekends.

Thanks

Jeff C

[Todd Simpson]

I was in a similar situation a few years ago, a sorted SC, 2 years of DE's and the track bug bit.

For me, the solution was an early car with a full cage, RS conversion and all the other upgrades. I didn't go 3.6, but 3.2 which with 2300 lbs still makes for a quick car. I'm *way* upside down on this one, but it was my first 911 and has some sentimental value.

My point is this car is a keeper and I don't care that I'm upside down. You don't seem to think of your SC as a keeper, so I say move on and get what you want now, before you spend any more.

A nice 964 coupe, stripped out, with the newer coil over suspension and climate control seems appealing to me too.

[masraum]

I think a 964 would be a good choice if you get one in really good shape.

[Wil Ferch]

I guess it depends on your long term view...like some have said here already.

Even with that view...your BIG cost is the 3.6 conversion.

Maybe an "in between" solution?...keep your car and do all the other upgrades except the 3.6. To gain another viewpoint, do a search here for "Tyson" and "140 hp"....and you'll quickly see the alternate viewpoint I'm talking about ( hint.... to go fast on the track...hp is about 5th down on the "list").

--Wil Ferch
( PS- just me..."Mr tightwad" looking for alternatives ! )

[Bill Verburg]

A really well sorted SC, especially if your "B" list mods are done will be an absolute ball, street or track.

It won't be as comfortable as a 964 but will outperform it easily.

That said if the SC was a daily driver/commuter/only car the 964 might be a better choice.

I consider my C3 to be in the really well sorted category and that's how I look at it anyway

[nostatic]

964s are now over 10 years old. I think they are heading into the "sorting" stage of life...so who's to say that if you buy one (even a nice one) that you won't be replacing a lot of the same stuff you've already done on the SC. Devil you know...

[markwemple]

You can't beat an sc for reliability. sorted or not. They are cheaper and easier to work on as well. I guess if I was looking for hp, I would considser a 3.2 for the easier hp mods or going to a more modern FI w/box for the 3.0. There are a lot of good systems out there. Just go to a PCA race and ask around! I wouldn't do the 3.6, too many issues (headaches!).

[Bill Verburg]

I've had a 3.6 swap in one form or another for over a decade now, mind telling me what headaches i've had? i must have missed something.

Yes, i've looked at the newer cars, every year since I bought the thing in'76, I was mightly tempted in '86 for a ROW Carrera Sport, currently I'm tempted by a 993RS/CS. But none would take the place of my existing car, it is too much fun. but it's also not transportation.

[markwemple]

Bill, I've heard of a lot of horror stories with the swap and the reliability issues that go with a 3.6. Either you are patient, lucky or both! Congrats and enjoy.

[Jcon]

Bill

That's what I'm looking for. I don't truly don't understand the capability differences. So from a suspension perspective.. My SC with 22/28 Torsion Bars and 22mm Smart racing sways would be at least on par in terms of handling with a 964?

Jeff

[JeremyD]

Originally posted by Jcon
Bill

That's what I'm looking for. I don't truly don't understand the capability differences. So from a suspension perspective.. My SC with 22/28 Torsion Bars and 22mm Smart racing sways would be at least on par in terms of handling with a 964?

Jeff

Jeff - I am sure you'll get quite a few opinions on this - but I can tell you from having both - I think the 964 handled better. I don't have track times to back it - OK - did much better at the autocross in the 964 - but in my opinion - the 964 was more predictable at the limit. Just one man's opinion.

[Bill Verburg]

That's what I was getting at. The 964 is likely to be a somewhat faster and a lot more comfortable, but not as fun. After all an '81 SC is in in G stock and the 964 is in E

A play car should be above all else fun.

Also keep in mind the 964 needs as many and more expensive mods to be a truly track capable car.

If I was going to go to a newer car a 993 is compelling(D stock) but equally compelling in D stock is a lite weight 2.7RS.

Now we are back to where we started. The guys w/ 2.7RS l/w love to get in my car. torque is intoxicating. Old fashioned suspension and all.

[targa911man]

I prefer the appearance of the SC but the 964 is way ahead in engineering. Maybe get a 964 but do something with the front bumper/valance/chin spoiler.

[surflvr911sc]

Funny, I have done everything but seats and harnesses, including a 3.6, on my ’81 SC and I love it. The car is so much fun to drive and the only thing hard about the conversion is knowing what you need. I am also well aware that I could never afford to sell my SC now, but I made the decision that she’s a keeper way before deciding on the 3.6.

I also would like a 964, but not for commuting. For the money, the 964 is a lot of car w/ lots of possibilities. For DE (not race) it would be an awesome car to strip down as light as you can get, remove the p/s, a/c, interior, work the suspension, and then you will have yourself one fun car.

What you want to do w/ it needs to be the biggest decision. If you are commuting, then the 964 would be much more practical, and probably cheaper in the long run, imo. The power is already there, and the handling is great for duel purpose w/o a ton of modification. But to get a >10yr 964 to the level of your SC will require a lot of work, as nostatic indicated.

For kick in the pants fun car, the 3.6 SC is hard to beat, but not cheap. Decide what you want before you make the decision on a 3.6 b/c it will be really expensive if you decide it’s not what you want later.

[Jcon]

Great input. Lot's to think about. In terms of look, sentimental value and fun..I love my SC. I just cringe sometimes thinking I'm throwing money at a platform that could be better spent.

I'm going to do some more research on the 964 capabilities, running costs and worthwhile mods. I see a cycle starting here. I'll get the 964 and throw money at it and finally decide I'm better off with a 993. After some costly upgrades to the 993 I'll see the light on a 993 turbo....Now I could save a lot of time and money if I just went out and bought the 993 turbo now(I think this is how my wife shops..I need a coupon) where dose it end.



More research...Maybe I need 2 cars.. yeah that's the ticket

[expat]

Just my opinion.

I have owned a 964 Coupe and a 87 Carrera Cab at the same time. I gotta tell ya, the 964 is hands down better for daily commutes and if your only doing a few track events a year the SC thing does not compare.

If you only do 5 DEs a year I bet the '80% street' you quoted is more like 95% (if you are using the P-car for daily commutes). For the 5% track days I'd strongly put forward a case for a 964.

As others have suggested (including you) however, you will still end up at the stage of wanting upgrades on the 964. My advice would be to search for the 964 with upgrades already paid for.

Yes, my location is diferent than yours, but...I bought a 3.8 with big brakes, suspension yada yada for the same price I could have a stock one. I bet you could too.

I'm not really a fan of the analogy 'the one you know...' Something can always go wrong....and usually will at some stage even if you have changed a bunch of stuff.

Good luck!

Keep us updated on your decision.

[yelcab1]

Is it just me or do I sense that the tide is turning for the better on the 964. A few years ago, nobody on this list would ever admit to liking or buying a 964!

Nothing's wrong with them for me, especially if it is a Turbo 3.8.

[JeremyD]

Originally posted by yelcab1
Is it just me or do I sense that the tide is turning for the better on the 964. A few years ago, nobody on this list would ever admit to liking or buying a 964!

Nothing's wrong with them for me, especially if it is a Turbo 3.8.

I think it has more to do with the fact that a few of us have actually owned a 964 and another model 911 and we are not responding to others on what we heard or what my cousins sisters uncle's experience was...

[Bill Douglas]

Maybe enjoy the SC for another couple of years, then buy the 993. If you buy the 964, you will spend money on it then a couple of years down the line you will have just fininshed the project (invested many $$$), then come accross a 993 that you just can't say no to.

[D Hanson]

I have had an 81 coupe, 88 cab, and 90 cab. Loved all three for different reasons. 964s are pretty expensive to maintain and even one that has a clean PPI and seems well sorted may end up costing you $ 5k or so in the first year or two to keep in top condition. My preference was probably the G50 model as far as compromise between old and the new if you use it to commute or drive in traffic. I had looked for another 88 or 89 cab after I wrecked my 88. I could not find one I really liked and ended up going with my 90 cab which had modifications (Ruf suspension, turbo brakes, new 993 top, body mods, 10k in engine mods and etc.) I really liked.

After having owned my 964 for about 6 months or so and spending a whole lot, I would not trade this car for any other cab (993, 996 or G50) and I even passed on a sweetheart brother in law type of deal on a 996 turbo cab. One of the Porsche dealer guys wants my 964 cab and they had several individuals back out on the 04 TT cabs when the TT cabs started coming into the dealership.

My 964 passed the PPI I paid for and had a PPI that was done only 4,000 miles prior to my PPI where the prior owner put a 993 top on it, did oil return tubes and corrected several other very minor things listed on his PPI. Even after that, I have dropped about $ 15k (not counting $ 10k in stereo) on this car in 6 months for the following:

New rotors and brake pads
GHL Exhaust (blew a hole in the muffler about a month after I bought it)
clutch
top end rebuild (had 2 to 8 percent leak down when purchased)
New tires (good when purchased, but poped one and wanted to keep same size on all)
lots of little while we are in here type of engine stuff
red seat belts
carbon door sills

The list really gets long. The point is just even if you buy what seems to be a sorted 964, you can end up spending a whole lot of money really quick. In the end, it would probably be cheaper to do your rebuild/SC project and probably should keep the SC if money is the primary object. If money is not the pirmary object, I would say go with the 964.