How much rust is too much??

[911SCfanatic]

Last month I began my quest for 70-73 911 coupe (preferably a 72-73). My goal is to buy one assembled and running for under $5k. I want it to be a street/race car when I'm done so I don't care about restoring it to original.

I expect to see rust because of ungalvanized bodies, age, and price range. I've looked at a couple so far and they seem to have a riduculous amount of rust. How much is too much? At what point is the tub not even salvageable? While I consider the restoration panels to be somewhat 'affordable', I don't see how you can take a tub that need repairs to virtually every panel and get a straight tub when you're done. Do you have to use a jig? What's realistic here?

Other relevant background: 1) my father-in-law does body work and restores classic cars, 2) I'm looking for a car that I can do most everything on and learn a lot, but get a professional result at the end, 3) I'm patient and am willing to spend many years on the project (have a wife that's a saint).

I'm trying to figure out what my strategy in finding one of these project cars should be. Please give your advice.

[markwemple]

If you have a jig or are excellent at prefitting, I have seen many really rust cars brought back. It is a matter of patience/$/time. If you love it, its worth it. If not, well???????????

[techweenie]

I think your price point is too low. In my experience $5K '69 -73 cars are the bottom of the market.

How much rust is too much? If you can push an icepick through any steel panel of the car, anywhere, that's too much.

Typically you can bring back cars with front suspension pan problems because it's acid-accelerated rust. But the part and the repair is going to total $800-$1,000.

I'm real hesitant to touch a 911 with rust coming from the inside out, because for every place you see it, there are 10,000 places you don't. Of course, I dont live in the Midwest...

[svandamme]

How much rust is too much? If you can push an icepick through any steel panel of the car, anywhere, that's too much.

that's a bit harsh

i could push an icepick through on two sides, and acually make a nice big hole almost big enough for my hand and the base of the fender/floorpan

and everybody i talk to says it's not to bad...
moved my car to the welding genius i found

and he's going to fix my car up real goooood...

maybe not cheap, but i'm willing to pay it, coz he's a top boy at it..
probably could have done it cheaper somewhere else, but i've seen his work and it's perfectionism...


i think it definately depends where the rust is, but the way i've been told : if it's metal it can be fixed .

the only question is time/money , less time = more money

a really bad sign would be if the car flexes, especially cab's or targas will have it's belly starting to sag if the rust is getting to bad. check for doors that don't close properly when the car is on a flat surface(it's relatively normal for a car to flex a bit when it's on a bridge , because the bridge takes away the load from the suspension and puts it where it normally isn't)




now you would be able to poke an oversized icepick through this hole... it's considered minor issue , according to everybody i asked ...

cut it out, weld in replacement patch , presto

[911SCfanatic]

Cutting and welding doesn't scare me, whether there's a hole or not. I'll have my father-in-law looking over my shoulder. The guy is a genius--he's chopped tops on classic cars, done all sorts of rust repair, etc. One of the things I am concerned about is whether there is a point where the overall structural integrity of the vehicle has been compromised too greatly. I realize this will be less of a concern for the coupes I look at. For example, on a car a looked at today the attachment points for both banana arms were completely rusted out above the attachment bolts. Is rust in this area or other areas "fatal" to a body restoration?

This sounds sick, but I am actually seeking out a project that requires a lot of work. I figure I will learn an unbelievable amount about restoration and save a 911 that was destined for the scrap heap in the process. I guess I just want to know what the minimum starting point is for repairing a rusted tub.

[svandamme]

Cutting and welding doesn't scare me, whether there's a hole or not. I'll have my father-in-law looking over my shoulder. The guy is a genius--he's chopped tops on classic cars,

looks like you've got it made !! take the man along with you , sounds to me , he can asses the situation nicely for you !

i didn't know shiznit when i bought mine, survived a near heart attack when the dealership told me my car was a piece of crap when i brought it in for maintenance... turned out my car did need some repairs, but nothing extreme...

if you do seek a lot of work, and you can weld and have a genius at hand, then i would say you would need a whole lotta rust before it's beyond what you can handle. unless it your future project car is actually sagging or has rust in places that are impossibly difficult to weld when the car is stripped nekkid... i'de say go for it

it is after all , a worthy cause to rescue an early

[Zeke]

If you strip out the interior for a race car, you will see every panel. It's almost worse than if you were going to cover things back up with carpet. When people think a car is not worth restoring for the street and non concours shows but it would be fine for a race car have got it all wrong. Of the two, the race car has to be stronger and will show more defects when all the sound deadening material and underseal is gone.

After a car has been cleaned off by blasting, every flaw shows. So, how much rust is too much? How much can you stand?

On 356s, they typically replace anywhere from 1/4th to 1/2 the car. 356 values support this. Early 911s are getting that way. but I wouldn't want any more rust than I absolutely had to accept to acquire a car.

[Markus33]

Is the 356 fundamentally different in terms of rust repair difficulty as compared to a 911 shell? Just curious about this.

Marks

[kumma]

bill

get in touch with me if you want to see what a sub $4000 911 looks like. i have some pictures somewhere of the before and the after is in my garage now. your welcome to come by and check it out and see some common rust issues if you want. might help before you go shoping.

[geof33]

Originally posted by Markus33
Is the 356 fundamentally different in terms of rust repair difficulty as compared to a 911 shell? Just curious about this.

Marks

There can be a few challenges if it's a rare early type, but overall just about any body part is available for the 356 as for the 911...

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Markus33
Is the 356 fundamentally different in terms of rust repair difficulty as compared to a 911 shell? Just curious about this.

Marks

I would say they are "fundamentally" the same. They are subject to some common issues and some different ones. Panel replacement and welding is the same game on both.

[markwemple]

The 356 is different in that it is a derivative of the type 1 vw but heavily enhanced. It has so many areas that could not be painted/treated that they hsd rust coming over on the boat. I know guys who have been able to overcome these issues and make a 356 resto a truly rust free job. On a 911 it is really much easier to determine where the rust is and how much.

[techweenie]

geof33: you say just about every panel is available for a 911, but I can't find the rear edge and lower section of the front fender -- probably the most commonly rusted-through part of the early 911...

Do you know anyone who makes these?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Bill, for your reference, I bought a 70T around Christmas for $5900, and luckily I've been through the car pretty good, and haven't found any rust I didn't know about. My main trouble spots are one hole in the front section of the drivers and passenger side floor pan, the lower portion of the passenger's side front fender, and the far forward portion of the front trunk, but none are too bad. I have lots of little stuff here and there, but the main touble areas are clean. Otherwise the interior is maybe a 7 if you don't count the headliner, and the car runs great with a freshly rebuilt tranny and new clutch. Well, it runs great when the little stuff isn't broken, but it's 34 years old. If you have access to a welder and a pro to use it, I don't see a limit. Obviously there's a point where it's futile, but any part you can't get new you can probably find someone who will cut it off of their parts car. If you have free help, the big thing is the price of your parts, start looking at prices of body parts, and 911 parts in general. When you realize that a dash is $700 or so and a PITA to put in, suddenly a car with a new dash is a big selling point. Hope I helped, and I wish I had your father in law.

[Shuie]

I paid $5k for my '73. It was a straight car with a good motor and tranny. The front pan needed to be replaced and the backseat was completely rusted out from the heel kick panel to the rear window. The rear longitudinals, rockers, and floor pans were all solid.

If you have the tools and the labor available to you for free or at a good price, you might be able to make good on a semi rusty car like my '73. My welding machine and shielding gas cost more than than the sheetmetal that was needed to fix the structural rusty areas of my car. I got really lucky though.

My front pan rot did not extend into the front longitudinal sections of the tub at all so it was easy to replace. Backseat area was $60 worth of flat sheetmetal from a local shop. If it had been any worse, it would have been well outside of my limited skillset

If you knowingly buy a car with rust, try to find one will not require a ton of custom fabrication work. Not all of the parts that rust on these cars are available from restoration design or Pelican.

Ive looked at about a dozen rusty cars in the last year and no two of them were rusted in exactly the same places. You really need to look over every inch of the car.

Good luck!

[ttweed]

Originally posted by 911SCfanatic
How much is too much?

This is too much.
YMMV,
TT

[svandamme]

just came back from the bodyshop, went to drop of my fenders/bumpers and hood... i dropped the car of yesterday evening and to my surprise... the left side is already welded !!!



they cut out everything, built new supports on the inside.. fixed up the fender support, new edge on the floorpan... made drainage holes...the works...
the guys brother and son are already going nuts on the doors and other panels, getting them ready for priming and painting...

i'm in awe watching craftsmen like this.

[Doug Zielke]

"...this is a 68 porsche 911 project that did not get finished."

[911SCfanatic]

Everyone, thank you for your thoughts. I am trying to educate myself and develop some perspective on these early cars. Please keep your comments coming!

[geof33]

Originally posted by techweenie
geof33: you say just about every panel is available for a 911, but I can't find the rear edge and lower section of the front fender -- probably the most commonly rusted-through part of the early 911...

Do you know anyone who makes these?

Where have you looked?

Are you talking inner fender, or outer? If outer, replace the whole fender, if inner you'll probably be fine with a cut out and patch deal.

Have you tried tweeks?