Upgrading sways but not t-bars and shocks??

[Vipergrün]

Hey all...not for me but for a friend.

What are the benefits, pros/cons of upgrading an SC to larger sway bars, but retaining the HD shocks and stock t-bars? The car would be used for street and beginner DE events.

TIA

-B

[Early_S_Man]

Brad,

That would be the 'Donohue Philosophy' ... if you read The Unfair Advantage! He tended to want the springs softer and the anti-roll bars heavier ... for better tire contact with the road over rough roads.

[Vipergrün]

Thanks Warren.... Amazing, I learn something new everyday here I gotta get that book...

-b

[911pcars]

Are you talking about a track-only car or a street-prepared car. I think MD was referring to an unfair advantage on the track.

In the case of a street 911, I've come to the conclusion that upgraded torsion bars affect more of an advantage in handling than heavy sway bars and stock torsion bars. And if you don't go overboard in torsion bar size, the loss of ride comfort isn't great. Besides, when you go to larger torsion bars and follow through with ride height adjustments, alignment and corner balancing, the car will handle much better than with just an increase in sway bar size.

Sherwood

[Zeke]

Yeah, but it will be level in the corners.

[Vipergrün]

You make me laugh Milt

My friend is trying to get bang for buck without breaking the bank and knows that the road to upgraded t-bars, bushings, corner balance, etc will get pricey.. Me? Heck, I just slap down the AMEX and worry about it next month

I am trying to encourage him to do everything at once and get some advice from someone local, such as Alarcon. Up front it may cost more, buy having to re-corner balance and align after every change will probably cost much more long-term.

[Lukesportsman]

But isn't it Donohue, who believes that polyurethane is the evil bushing? Was it him or Herb that strongly suggests that all poly bushings need to be removed for metalic bushings and heim joints? Herb is also a big one for swaybars to help a street car compensate for softer springs.

[911pcars]

Come to think of it, Herb Adams was of the soft spring, heavy sway bar philosophy in his Pontiac TransAm. The contrary view was stiff springs and relatively soft sway bars. Was that Dick Guildstrand (Camaro and Corvette)? I'm reaching back a few years.

Sherwood

[efhughes3]

I think when the opinions on poly vs. metal bushings were voiced, Elephant Racing's Poly-Bronze hadn't been invented yet. They are THE way to go.

[Jeff Alton]

The RUF yellowbird had stock torsion bars and bigger sway bars. I think.

I know Ruf likes softer springs and stiffer sway bars.


Jeff

[Todd Simpson]

On my old SC I upgraded to the later Carrera sway bars and left everything else stock. I was still using street tires at the time but still noticed the difference at the track, a little flatter cornering.

My current car is the opposite, a light '71T with 22/28 bars and stock, tiny little 15 or 16mm sway bars. Almost no lean and still very easy to drive. This is probably the better way to go as the stock bushings were whipped and I now have a nice base to build on.

I'm sure one philosophy is better than the other but for the intended use I say go either way. You'll probably end up doing it all eventually anyway.

[Lukesportsman]

So Tod, which one was easier to drive on the track? Which one worked better on the street? What did you do for shocks in either case?

[911pcars]

Here's something to consider. Porsche used 18.8/24.1 mm front/rear torsion bars on all their 911s up until '86 (have I got that right?). Then they upped the rear bar to 25mm until they switched over to coil springs in '89. So basically the same size, even though the vehicle weight increased in each successive model. An '88 911 is what? 400-500 lbs heavier?

From this, you can conclude that an increase in torsion bar size for a late 911 is not going to affect the ride as much as in an earlier and lighter 911. I think a modest increase in size for your late model isn't going to loosen any fillings but will provide a little more car control. A lot of guys use 21/28, 21/29 or something around there. In addition, your threshold of ride comfort might be different from mine or Todsimpson's. 22/28 bars on his early car sounds a little too tight for my type of driving. Maybe his neighborhood road surfaces are better than mine.

Sherwood
'69 with 21/27 tb's

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally posted by efhughes3
I think when the opinions on poly vs. metal bushings were voiced, Elephant Racing's Poly-Bronze hadn't been invented yet. They are THE way to go.

Very true. But Polybronze are indeed metalic bearings, they are are merely encapsulated in a polyurethane jacket.

Donohue would be proud.

[Dutchie]

Brad i have stock torsion bars on my 87 with the 22 mm adj swaybars that Chuck sells. The car handles much better then before i must say. I changed the boge shocks for koni yellow adjustables at the same time. The shocks are too much for the stock bars if you adjust them to full firm. Next year i will do the bigger torsion bars and Chucks bushings. If your friend does the swaybars first dont forget to put on the new type rear swaybarholders on the car first ! the old ones will rip for sure with the stiffer swaybars.


Cheers,

Ed

[Todd Simpson]

22/28 bars on his early car sounds a little too tight for my type of driving. Maybe his neighborhood road surfaces are better than mine.

Well, my choices were driven mostly by budget! The 22/28's were an ebay purchase that included adjustable spring plates, Bilstein sports and front monoballs for $900. I used the stock sway bars for the last 2 years simply because I had to.

It's overall a nice setup and neutral to drive. Very stiff, but I really only use the car on the street on the way to and from DE's.

The car pictured in this month's Excellence suspension article is mine, BTW. We also did a front cooler that will be featured later. Air Cooled Classics in TN has done almost all the work on my car and I'm very pleased.

[stealthn]

Good question Brad,

I posted the same one in another thread with no real answer. Here it seems there isn't a definitive answer. I got the quote for new shocks, bushing, upgraded torsions, and lowering/balancing. Ouch. I think I'll try to do most of the work myself.

The reason I was asking is someone I am getting some SSI's off of has some adjustable sways, so I thought I would post the same question.

I still think I try bushing and shocks to start, torsions and lowering next, then assess.

Let us know what your friend chooses and how he likes them.

Cheers