performance for early 911

[old 911]

Looking for good upgrades in performance and handling for my new(to me) 1970 911t. I have webers and electronic ignition stock exhaust and everything else.

[Emission]

Welcome to the board!

Sorry, I can't offer advice, as my car is a (relatively brand-new) 1986.

[techweenie]

There's no substitute for cubic inches.

The most economical way to add performance to an early 911 is a 3.0 or 3.2. A correctly-rebuilt 2.7 can be a good option, too.

The good news is that the early cars really respond to horsepower and torque increases because they are lightweight.

Welcome!

[jluetjen]

Welcome 'Old 911 (not that 1970 is THAT old!).

I guess the first question is how much do you want to spend? The second question is how do you define performance and handling? Another thing is what is the condition of the car now? Some times it's not a question of improving the performance so much as getting it back to where it was 30+ years ago.

[911pcars]

You'll probably get more performance out of suspension improvements with the same budget. Conduct a search for much info on recommended modifications. Doesn't have to be expensive to begin with although your basic suspension should be in good shape (bushings, shocks, etc.).

You're limited what you can do to add power without a large budget. As techweenie advises, there is no substitute for cubic inches (or cubic centimeters). If your Webers are factory stock, I have a slight upgrade path from when I did this (30mm venturis, 125 main jets and ?? idle jets). Let me know if you're interested. You can recurve your Marelli (?) distributor for a little more bottom end ignition advance or get an early Bosch distributor.

Check and/or renew these bushings in your car. They have an impact on vehicle response:

Throttle linkage
Shift linkage
Front/rear suspension
Pedal assembly

Then there are the freebies:
Check for WOT (wide open throttle)
Check ignition timing
Balance carbs
Check tire pressure

Purchase Bruce Anderson's "911 Performance Handbook" and one or both of Wayne's DIY books (here on PParts online catalog).

That's the short list,
Sherwood
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

[Jack Olsen]

Performance for what use? The best bang for the buck will come with suspension improvements. The car is light and nimble, but can be made to stick much better.

On the street, though, you're very rarely testing even the stock suspension.

If you want to go fast in a straight line, an engine swap will do the trick.

And if both power and period-correctness is your goal, well, get out your checkbook. It will be fun, but it won't be cheap.

[Superman]

All the above answers appear to be incorrect. Seat time is the answer. DE events. Autocross events. Driver skills days. The weak link almost always is the nut behind the wheel. I was told, by an experienced SCCA instructor, to wait at least a years before making decisions about performance upgrades. I'm glad I waited. It's been 4.5 years now, and I think I've decided to forego the stiffer torsion bars, sway bars, etc. Instead, I will put fresh shocks on it and fresh bushings.

[arerrac]

I too agree w/Superman. Owned my Carrera for about a year until I did any upgrades. Wanted to learn about what I had before I made and changes.
After learning to drive w/o a strut bar, turbo tie-rods, or a proper corner balance made me REALLY appreciate those changes once they were made. Strut bar made the BIGGEST for me.
-Wade

[jluetjen]

Boy, aren't we a great group for whipping out answers before we even understand the questions.

[drummer323]

I agree with Superman that driving events are the best, However, I'm more inclined that he is searching for add on mods to motor for power. Since these aren't chevy v8's power comes with a price. I'm converting to a turbo'd 3.2 short stroke and have had my '71T for about 4 years with the 2.2T motor at 125hp at its heyday. I put lots of driving time in to learn the car and realize I want to see what its capable of with more torque and power and I have totally revamped the entire suspension to handle the additional power. So I agree learn what the car is capable of as well as your driving skills, then progress to suspension and so forth.

[Superman]

More power and torque is what new owners want first. But it happens to be one of the very least important aspects. Sure, starting at 125 hp there is room for a little more "oomph" but for many of us, more hp does little to improve our lap times. In fact, if the more powerful engine is heavier, I'm not sure lower lap times are the end result of an engine transplant. 125 hp, in those early early cars, was enough to run circles around world competition regardless of class. Light weight is simply better than more power. And the ultimate performance modifications are the ones done to the nut behind the wheel. I could drive Leeds' car (2.9L "7R" case in a TOTALLY stripped and tweeked and sorted and wide-fendered, and roll-caged single-seat 914) while he drives mine (250k+ miles on original suspension 911 without racing bumpers or even seats), and he'd flat out kick my ass. In fact, he could probably pass me twice during the 1-minute AX course by letting me ahead between passes. Pathetic but true.

[old 911]

Thanks guys I live on a moutain road real twisty! I want the car to stick what are the best shocks for this vehicle? And how about a little more umph out of the corner horsepower wise any suggestions or mods i can do to the carbs exhaust or ignition.

[ajackson]

Suspension and seat time is mostly good for improving laptimes. For a normal street car (where you aren't blasting around corners), a lot of fun can be had with a bunch of horsepower zipping around town (0-freeway mph). I imagine that for a lot of people, that is where the question stems from. If given the chance, I would take an extra 50-100 hp even though I can't deal with my 3.2L around the track (yet).

[rs911t]

These guys are right. Learn to keep the throttle down when you get into a corner too fast before playing with the twisty mountain roads. Only then will you know if more power is necessary. IMO

[old 911]

That all said what upgrades will benefit me suspension wise the best konis, sway bars etc. I just drive the car home and to work but i push it hard in the twistys.

[Jack Olsen]

21/26 t-bars, 19mm adjustable swaybars front and rear, Bilstein Sport shocks, new suspension bushings from Elephant Racing... for starters.

[Grady Clay]

OLD911,

Where do you live? What kind of mountain roads (snow, ice, sand)? Is your ‘70T a coupe or Targa? How well does it work now, aside from not being fast enough for you? What tires do you have? What condition?

You say it needs more grip. That is tires first.
You say you want more punch out of a corner. That is engine displacement first.

Are there other things you can do? You bet. I would start with making sure everything is working as if it were new. Checking the alignment might be a place to start.

Several have given you some good basics to look at. A Do-It-Yourself (DIY) tune-up is not expensive.

Most important a 911 won’t corner like it’s on a rail and it won’t stop on a dime. Newton’s laws still apply. We don’t want to find you at the bottom of some ravine or off a cliff. Careful does it. Daily driving on the street is probably one of the most dangerous things you (and I) ever do.

Most of us have discovered it is much safer and satisfying to go fast on the track. One of the most important things you learn at a track Driver’s Education (DE) event is what your 911 WON’T do.

Best,
Grady

[techweenie]

Since you mentioned the engine in your original post, I assumed you were asking about power.

For the suspension, my experience with 30-year-old 911s tell me to echo what Sherwood said: the rear torsion bar bushings are probably toast. Same with rear swing arm, front t-bar, ball joints and tie rods. You're going to burn through a lot of cash updating all that stuff, but the difference in feel will be remarkable.

It's arguable that when you are replacing t-bar bushings you should go to bigger t-bars. But that will be a big gulp to do all at once.

IMHO, the progression -- if you're doing it over time -- is:

1. bushings/ball joints/tie rod ends, lower & align. Shocks/inserts if necessary.

2. Sticky tires

3. Stiffer sway bars

4. Uprated torsion bars

Somewhere between #2 & 3, get some guided high speed driving experience. 911s are famous for separating the skilled from the merely enthusiastic. I'm not talking about going on a drive with 911 drivers, but going to a track school. You don't say where you live, but there are track schools all over the country.

Too much focus on the machinery doesn't make as much sense as developing your ability to react correctly in emergency/low traction situations.

We want you to be a member of our community for a while.

[old 911]

Thanks guys . Im a compatant driver and have owned porsches for 20+ years. I want to keep this old car around a while so im gonna throw some cash at it. I think some koni adjustables front and rear with all new urathane bushings will be a good start. She runs real well but im use to my turbos power and stiffness. Id like to get the old girl to not lean as much and have just about 50 more hp to make her more capable to my driving skills right now shes a little slow but i enjoy the ride. Im surprised shes rated at 125hp feels like about 180 by my a$$ dyno. Once again thanks glad to be here.

[Grady Clay]

old 911,

So, give us a list of twenty years of Porsches. Got photos?

I notice that the advice you are getting (for the most part) does NOT include use this torsion bar set-up, use these shocks, use this brake combination, modify your engine this way, etc. ad nausium.
The advice you are getting is philosophical; start with the basics. This Forum is full of members just dying to tell you “how to do it.” There is an incredible wealth of expertise here. We could all easily overwhelm you with “advice” and you just opened the flood gate.

Figure a budget for yourself. I’ll bet I (and others) can spend your money faster than you can.

Back to my prior question; is it a coupe or Targa? This determines how stiff of suspension the chassis can tolerate.
Does it have ANY rust?
Is there any prior crash damage?
Has it been previously tinkered with?
Where do you live?
What kind of roads?

The more info you post, the more responsive the advice.

Best,
Grady